Orlagh Kelly: Bernard Savage, welcome to the Get Briefed podcast. Thank you so much for attending as a guest.

Bernard Savage: Thank you, Orlagh. I'm delighted to be here.

Orlagh Kelly: Always lovely to talk to you. For those who are listening or watching and haven't had the pleasure of meeting Bernard — Bernard is the founder and director of the business development agency Size 10½ Boots. As I understand it, he wears size 10 and a half boots. And Bernard provides specialist BD support for all areas of the legal industry and has done for almost 20 years. So we are really drilling into an expert here. Now Bernard, you very kindly helped us draft some training for the bar around strategic networking, which has been very popular — particularly with the junior end, the clerking end and the junior barristers who are having to learn a little bit more about these skills. So kicking off, tell me a little bit about your background and how you got to where you are now.

Bernard Savage: Firstly, thank you and you've built me up. I hope I can deliver for you and for the listeners. I think as with many people, I've kind of ended up in this by accident, if I'm brutally honest, because the first half of my career I worked in a very, very different environment — working for big blue-chip organisations, Procter & Gamble and Shell — and I suppose a more traditional sales and marketing background. And I stumbled into the legal sector by accident as a marketing director at Eversheds in the UK. And that was quite a steep learning curve for me. The two years I was at Eversheds, it was all very new. I'd come from an environment where marketing and sales was very much at the core of what the business did. And of course in law firms, in the legal sector, it's about solicitors and it's about barristers. It's not about marketing people at all. So very steep learning curve.

But I got some valuable insights in my time at Eversheds and that gave me the confidence to set up my own agency back in 2005. Despite a few bumps in the road, like things like COVID and the things that happen in business, 19 years on, still here, I've been able to feed a family of six and for the most part, really enjoy what I do.

Orlagh Kelly: And so the question that comes to my mind straight away — and you sort of leant towards it when you talk about the difference in focus between the large conglomerates that you worked with previously when you moved to Eversheds — is: when I was a practising barrister, I probably had never heard of the word business development. And marketing certainly didn't appear to be anything that was connected to what I did at all. So can you tell me why do barristers think like that, if that's the typical thought process that you've come across?

Bernard Savage: Oh my word, that would take me probably two and a half hours to answer. Let me do it concisely. I think there is a real misunderstanding about marketing and business development. I want to try and make it simpler. If you are a barrister, you need to be visible to the people that are in a position to instruct counsel. It's as simple as that. I think words like marketing and sales and BD are both misleading and off-putting. If you are visible to the right people and you're memorable and you come across well and people warm to you, and so long as you stay on their radar, the instructions will follow. And I think if we think about visibility, it'll be more helpful. I think the one other thing I would say is that unfortunately a lot of barristers and solicitors have been misinformed and been led to believe that business development is all about schmoozing people at stuffy networking events. And you know what? It doesn't have to look like that at all. It really doesn't. And I think some of those stereotypes and negative associations is what puts so many people off. If you ask 100 marketing people what the difference is between marketing and BD, you'll get a hundred different answers. But as it's only me on this podcast, I'm going to give one answer. Think of marketing as kind of creating some noise, building some awareness so that when as a barrister you meet someone, they say, yeah, I've heard of your set and I have a positive impression and they have some understanding of what your set does. That's the marketing bit. The BD bit is the personal stuff. It's about what as a barrister you can do to invest in relationships, build visibility and position yourself as a go-to person in whatever area of law you happen to practise.

Orlagh Kelly: And so that means straight away the question that comes to mind is, well, what can a barrister do — echoing what you've said — to essentially put themselves forward, make themselves visible?

Bernard Savage: And there are lots of things a barrister can do. And I think, again, another myth is that, you know, one has to be very extrovert and one has to be able to make small talk with complete strangers. And actually you don't have to do any of that stuff at all. For me, good BD for a barrister is about being true to yourself and doing the kinds of things that you enjoy doing that present you in the best possible light. So what might that look like? For some people, it might be spending more time one-on-one with existing contacts and changing the discussion from a particular case, particular file, particular client, having a broader conversation, getting to know people on a more personal level, perhaps because of shared interests. I think for others, it might be about really homing in on particular specialist areas and building visibility through content. Now content today — as this podcast — can take many different formats. Historically, content would have been write an article, get it published on chambers website or get an article published in the legal press. And all of that is fine, but actually there's real value in audio and video, whether that's podcasts or little video talking heads. And I think often people are put off because it all sounds very techy, very scary.

You don't have to do all the techie stuff. And actually, I would argue my experience is it's less scary to have a conversation like you and I are doing now than to stand in front of a big room of solicitors giving a legal update. And if I'm brutally honest, I think I've sat through a lot of barristers' legal updates.

What makes someone a great orator in court doesn't necessarily make them a great presenter when it comes to marketing seminars. And again, speaking very frankly, I think the quality of presentations is quite poor because it's a different skill set and there are different rules of engagement. So you know, there is a multitude of things that you can do. It doesn't all have to be big events. A lot of the value from networking can be much smaller, much more informal stuff based around shared interests. And it isn't all about networking. Some people that are perhaps more comfortable with social media — LinkedIn is a great tool if you know what you're doing. Unfortunately, most barristers don't really know what they're doing on LinkedIn. So they might have a profile and be up there, but they're not posting content that actually attracts the sort of people that they want to attract. So I think there's a multitude of ways and it isn't all about stuffy networking.

Orlagh Kelly: Okay. And so you mentioned LinkedIn there. What are like two things that barristers should not do and two things that they should do to improve their content on LinkedIn?

Bernard Savage: Okay, right. What they shouldn't do is just put a profile up there and just leave it, because it won't do it. Do something, because magic doesn't happen in business development. You engineer serendipity by being visible and doing stuff. So don't just put a profile up there and expect magic to happen because it won't. I think to be more helpful in terms of what you can do, it's posting content regularly. Let me be a bit more specific.

People buy people. Yes, LinkedIn is a professional business tool. You know, it's not appropriate to share probably holiday snaps, but it's about engaging people. So the sort of content that will typically engage people is where you can look at something that's happening in the market, something that's topical and perhaps draw some learning from that that might be of value to other people in a way that presents a little bit of personality. Some of the best pieces of advice I ever had very, very early days of my business was to not take myself quite so seriously. And I think sometimes there is a tendency for people to take themselves a tad too seriously. It's not unprofessional to show a little bit of personality on LinkedIn.

So, you know, as an example, one of the things that I post regularly on LinkedIn is actually a music playlist, which might sound a bit bizarre. But the reason — it sounds a little bit left field — but the reason I stuck with it is because it's actually taken me aback by one, the people that I knew already I've actually got to know on a deeper level because we've discovered a shared interest of obscure 1980s indie music. But also what's happened is it's attracted people outside of my network who, because of the powers of the internet, have been attracted to similarly obscure music. So that's been brilliant. And another networking example specifically — in the course of my work largely in the city in London, but not just in London, I've come across a lot of business professionals who happened to support West Ham United Football Club. Now, I have no interest in West Ham United Football Club. I'm a season ticket holder at Mansfield Town. However, it occurred to me that these West Ham business people don't know one another. So I'm the link. So I've connected them. And what started off as a virtual network during one of the lockdowns then led, once the social restrictions were eased, to meeting in real time. And that's something that's still alive and kicking, what, four years on. And of course, when people are together that have a common interest, you have more genuine conversations and you get to know each other better. And yes, it does generate business. So I think there's something out there for everybody. And it saddens me that many barristers don't engage in business development because they feel, or they've been told, you have to fit a certain stereotype, which is probably a very outgoing person who dances on tables at 3 o'clock in the morning. And there's something out there for everybody. It's not all about alcohol either. Yes, you know, the pub has historically probably featured quite highly, certainly in networking. But there are many ways to engage with people — through, you know, dog walking. The outdoors is brilliant. If you are a barrister who — perhaps there's a lot of — probably Chancery, I suspect, not necessarily Chancery but property-related stuff. Why wouldn't you go for a walk with a real estate solicitor looking at what's happening in a certain region? I'm thinking of Birmingham because Birmingham's undergone significant urban regeneration and really lends itself to that kind of activity. But it doesn't — you don't have to live in Birmingham to walk with clients.

Orlagh Kelly: Yeah. And so a little bit of us thinking outside the box. I can certainly, while I sit here, think about some barristers who I don't know personally but who I am always interested in reading what they post about. It'll tend to have a human side to it. I personally dislike when I see a profile and someone has posted a judgment — which is an attachment to a judgment. I don't find that that interesting. Others might. And so it's what I start to think: well, what do I like to read? And what engages me? And consequently, if I'm posting on LinkedIn — which I'm, I mean, working a lot in privacy and advising people around GDPR inherently makes you less willing to engage in social media platforms and profiles and essentially give up your privacy. It's a bit of a battle for me. However, it is great sometimes to engage with people on LinkedIn, you can have great conversations. And so what would you say? I mean, I'm thinking of a barrister, a contact of mine, who's indicated she's got a very successful and busy practice right now, but she keeps meaning to do something on LinkedIn. Is it required or necessary for people who have a busy practice to bother with any of this? Is it that important? Or are there clerks and whatever it is that they're doing outside of social media — is that working for them?

Bernard Savage: Let me unpick that because there are several questions in there. I'm going to attempt to answer some, if not all of them. The first thing to say is it's really important that barristers make a distinction between them as individuals and chambers. So people buy people. So if you are reliant on your chambers, chambers marketing alone I think that's quite a dangerous strategy. And that's in no way being disrespectful or disingenuous to clerks or practice managers that are out there across the bar. But people buy individuals, they rarely if ever buy the sign above the door. There are exceptions if you're in a niche of a niche, but for most barristers it's about the individual. That's the first thing I'd say. Second thing I would say is, we're talking about LinkedIn here, but I wouldn't want anyone to go away thinking, you know, the only way to be effective in BD is they have to embrace LinkedIn and social media, because you don't, you don't. And I totally understand why there is a reluctance for some to go through social media, but some of it is an irrational fear. LinkedIn, used appropriately, is actually a very time-efficient way to stay visible with the people that you're trying to influence, whether those are existing contacts or whether it's trying to attract new contacts. But it isn't all about LinkedIn. I think there's another important point from what you said Orlagh around habits. Business development effectively done is exactly the same as any aspect of personal wellbeing. If you have a desire to improve your personal wellbeing through, I don't know, whether it's yoga, sleep, diet, running, whatever it is — then the principles have as much applicability for BD. This is going to sound slightly, perhaps even silly, but I'm quite serious about this Orlagh. Let's take dieting as an example. I think diets and Dry Januaries and abstaining from things is really unhelpful. It's not sustainable. And all it means, if you do Dry January, you're probably going to binge drink in February, which is not really very good for you. Dieting, most diets don't work because it's short-termism. And what you really need is making the right lifestyle choices. It's exactly the same with BD.

Anybody who's listening who has worked with me will testify that I'm not particularly tolerant of people who say to me they haven't got time to do BD. It's completely a mindset thing. If it's important to you, whether it's personal wellbeing, whether it's BD, it's woven into your normal modus operandi. It's not something extra. This morning — I'm not going to sound dead smug here, but this morning I went for a run before early doors. Now I would have liked to stay in bed another hour but I looked at my schedule over the week, when I'm going to be travelling and the opportunities to get any exercise are limited, it's going to be difficult. So I thought, well, I'll work from home today. Get up a little bit earlier, do a quick run, which means I feel suitably smug now talking to you.

Orlagh Kelly: And I think you posted about that somewhat, because I knew about that before we came on here. There's no need to post about your runs.

Bernard Savage: But the serious point here is it's about habits. And the way to do BD, you don't need to come up with incredible innovative ideas. What you do need to do is ring-fence time regularly to do stuff — whether that's LinkedIn, whether that's going to events, whether that's having coffees with clients, whatever it is. But once something becomes a habit, you're not suddenly too busy.

I could think of one litigator who shall remain nameless, obviously, who I have worked with some years ago in BD. And he was a nightmare, to be honest with you. We'll call him John, which wasn't his name. And because I talked to him in January and he'd say, not a great time to do BD. People just come back after Christmas. It takes a while to get into the swing of things again. You'd get to February and he would say, not a great time, half term. You know, people aren't around. Then you get to March and he'd have the Easter excuse, which actually covers two months. Then May, lots of bank holidays. Then you get to June and it's like, of course, you know, summer, very difficult time, people are going away. Not around. Then you get to September. Oh, it's really busy post-holidays, really busy time, not good at all. But then of course you get to Christmas. Well, no one wants to do BD, it's Christmas. And that isn't a made-up situation. We all delude ourselves, we all make excuses — whether it's not staying fit or whether it's not doing BD. You start with your reason why. And I'm going to be very upfront, very forthright and direct here: every barrister needs to do BD, because to not be doing BD it's like crossing your fingers and hoping the phone rings. And it isn't just about being busy, it's about getting the work that you want. So if you want to do the work that you want, and you want to work with people that you like, and you want to do things you enjoy, have a BD plan and make it work for you. Be pragmatic. Look at your lifestyle. Look at things that are important to you. There needs to be a strong reason why. And then it's about systems really and discipline and a little and often — just like with diet. Dieting is a waste of time, but making lifestyle choices and adjusting and being realistic is far better than, you know, bingeing on BD or bingeing on food. You never knew you were going to get all this dietary advice, did you? Was it what you were expecting?

Orlagh Kelly: Thanks very much. Thank you.

Bernard Savage: Obviously not for you — I'm thinking about the listeners.

Orlagh Kelly: So I mean, I'm certainly thinking, I guess I'm thinking about myself when I used to practise. We don't have a clerking system in Northern Ireland, and so we don't have the benefit. And I see it as a huge benefit to have clerks. I really wish that I did have that opportunity. And what did I do to get my practice going? And some small things that weren't, I guess you could put them under a BD title, but I would, I tried to be very good at what I would describe as customer service. So when I finished in court, I would phone the solicitor to tell them what had happened. And then I would follow that up that day or the next day with a written version of, you know, my attendance note, et cetera. And the reason I point that out, that doesn't seem like BD at all. However, the number of times the solicitor said, funny, just since you're on the phone, I've just had a client in. Would you be able to accept a brief on this date? Because, you know. And so it was essentially by continuing to communicate with them in a meaningful fashion, I was opening up channels that they could then quite easily keep me front of mind or communicate with me. And so that, I mean, that's fifteen, twenty years ago now, essentially pre-social media. But it's the same essence of, if you're visible, I was inherently making myself visible to those solicitors in that little small way.

Bernard Savage: 100% agree with you and it certainly is BD. And I've just, let's just reflect on what you've just said, which I as I said I'm in agreement with. I think sometimes, you know, barristers and solicitors think that when people are selecting advisers that they go through this really robust, disciplined, empirically-based procurement approach. Now, yes, in certain areas, perhaps in public sector procurement, that might happen, at least in theory. The reality is it goes like this. Somebody's in trouble, they're stressed and they're thinking, right, I need counsel. Who shall I call? And you have to be front of mind. It's as simple as that. So if you're out there and you're visible and you're front of mind, stuff happens. Only this morning before we met, Orlagh, exactly what you explained — I'd finished a coaching programme with a partner in a law firm. And I took the initiative to arrange a debrief with my sponsor in this particular law firm. Now, if I'm brutally honest, part of my motivation there wasn't just the debrief, it was because I wanted to remind this person that I'm still here, to see whether there's anybody else that might benefit from some BD coaching.

And it worked a treat because at the end of the call, I was asked to write that up and we naturally kind of got to a point where we were exploring whether there might be some value in having some ongoing sort of quarterly support. Yeah, just by being visible, things will happen by osmosis.

Orlagh Kelly: Mm-hmm. It certainly would appear to me that barristers are at risk of getting left behind — those that don't do any of this. And essentially, all clients and all solicitors expect that you're an excellent advocate and that you know the area of law. The only way to set yourself apart, in my opinion, is your personality and how you do business and how you treat people and show up.

And so you can only get that across, your clerking team can only do so much for you. You have to go that last piece and support them, essentially, in their job. You want to do a good job, but you need to communicate. Because, and it's a bit controversial, but you are the product. I think as a barrister, you are the product. And if you start thinking like that, that people are buying you and buying how you do things, then you see that you have to be visible. There's no real way around that.

Bernard Savage: I agree.

Orlagh Kelly: What would you say about networking events? I don't, I'm not keen on them. I know that you're going to give out to me about that. But as soon as you tell me I have to go somewhere and network with people, I find that a little bit difficult, even though I actually have no difficulty talking to people. But you put that label "networking" on it and it changes it. Have you any advice for people that aren't keen on networking events?

Bernard Savage: Yes, and the first thing I would say is that networking is simply one way of doing BD. So that's the first thing, you can be effective in BD and use other approaches and strategies to build visibility. So that's the first thing I would say.

Second thing is that one of the, probably the main reason that people have a negative attitude, or many people have a negative attitude, to BD is that it's based on this idea. It's about stuffiness and formality and big events and talking to strangers when it needn't look like that at all. And some of the best networking forums I can think of are quite small, more relaxed. They're not stuffy and it's not about the law. So I'll give you an example, just one example, there are many, you know.

There's something called Suits and Vinyl, which started off as a LinkedIn group set up by an accountant who didn't particularly enjoy networking, but knew he had to grow his network and had to do something. So he decided to set up a LinkedIn group where people within the professions would talk about their interest in buying records. And he was taken aback by the popularity of what was just a LinkedIn group. So he and his colleagues took it from being a LinkedIn group to operating in real time. So there are real events probably once a quarter. Leeds is the focus of that. So that's, you know, that's just one example, just getting involved. You know, if you're somebody who's, I don't know, an avid fan of Agatha Christie, set up an Agatha Christie group and you can debate the merits of Hercule Poirot versus Miss Marple or whatever. It doesn't have to be stuffy. So, you know.

But again, outside of networking, think about content. Too often, I think, barristers think about content as being about very heavy techie stuff, you know, big cases and precedents. But it doesn't have to look like that at all. Something's come to my attention very recently, in fact, a managing partner at Harneys, I'm sure many people will be familiar with Harneys, it's an offshore firm, and the managing partner there is posting, in my opinion, very good content on LinkedIn where he's showing some personality, but it is business related. He's not talking about the cricket particularly or the rugby or whatever it is. He's making parallels and in a humorous, not belly laugh humorous, but in a light way talking about experiences through his career. And I think it's excellent.

And somebody else who posts really good content is the Chief Executive — I think the correct title, now I'll get it wrong and be in trouble — but Sarah Walker-Smith at Shakespeare Martineau, who shares quite a lot in terms of her views on stuff, not just the law, but broader. But it works. You see it and you hear it, you feel it above all the noise. So content's important.

Orlagh Kelly: Finishing up — we're coming to the end of our time. That has gone very fast. And I'll probably have to get you back on as a guest because there's so much to talk about. But what would be a good starting point if you've motivated people off the back of this conversation? What would be a good starting point for them today or tomorrow to get something done?

Bernard Savage: First thing people should do is not sign up for more events or even necessarily search out podcasts or look at LinkedIn. First thing people should do is get a piece of paper and write the names of 10 people that they're going to make a commitment to get more time with over the next 12 months. Not necessarily invite them for lunch where the lunch is the BD. I'm talking about 10 people that they know already — could be lapsed contacts in a firm that perhaps they've been instructed by two or three years ago, that they know and they like. And likeability is very important here. And if there's a third criterion, perhaps some sort of strategic fit in terms of, you know, there's some connection with one's expertise and where one wants to grow one's practice.

And create a coffee plan, which is as simple as writing the 10 names down, the 12 months of the year, plan and actual, stick it on, behind your computer monitor or something, so you see it every day. And invite people to have, I use coffee, obviously it doesn't literally have to be coffee, it's whatever works for that individual that makes them feel comfortable. Could be a lunch. In my experience, tends to not be as often, because lunches take more time, it's a bit more formal, and there's always the danger people feel you're trying to schmooze them, whereas coffee's a lighter touch. Just one practical tip — when you then implement your coffee plan and you contact people, don't do what a lot of people do, which is a very woolly, ambiguous email, which says, perhaps we could catch up over a coffee.

That's not the better way of doing it. Anchor your approach to something specific. So it could be that you've had a thought about, you've got something to share from previous conversations — perhaps there's been a change in legislation or regulation which means it changes someone's circumstances. It may be you want to invite them to something, but want to talk them through it. A good one is you might want to pick their brain on something. I use that one a lot — where you engage people you know already, tell them what, bring them into your confidence to share what you want to do. You might say, you know, I'm looking to get more immersed in the retail sector, but my plans are a bit half-baked. Can we have a coffee? Want to pick your brain? Because you know the retail sector better than I. Whatever it is, flattery gets you everywhere. People love to share their views on things, but anchor your approach to something concrete. That's the key thing. And then second tip — if you don't get a response to your email, do not assume that the other person's not interested. They perhaps haven't even got to your email, or they've forgotten, or they've lost it, or it just landed at the wrong time. Have the self-confidence to go back to them politely and ask again because if you do that, you will get more coffee meetings.

Orlagh Kelly: Very good. Thank you. That is great advice. Now, it would be remiss of me not to mention, of course, if someone wants to do some training, you have written a beautifully structured and helpful strategic networking course at Briefed. And of course you do one-to-one coaching and mentoring too, which I know is immensely helpful, which is why it's been very hard to get you booked in for the podcast because you're in such demand. So thank you for your time. I really appreciate it and I look forward to having you back on again.

Bernard Savage: Thank you, Orlagh. And just by way of personal closure, if anybody wants to find out more about Size 10½ Boots, then www.tenandahalf.co.uk. I'm a marketing person Orlagh.

Orlagh Kelly: No problem. And we'll put those details underneath the Spotify description and everything. Thank you very much, Bernard. Thanks a million.

Bernard Savage: Thanks, Orlagh.