Orlagh Kelly: So today we've got the lovely David Goddard. David, thank you so much for joining us on the Get Briefed podcast. I really appreciate having you as a guest.

David Goddard: Thank you. Pleasure.

Orlagh Kelly: So you're sitting, it would appear to me, in chambers today. If I recall correctly, you're a big advocate for going into chambers, is that right?

David Goddard: Yeah, even during Covid I sort of came in and I'm very much a work in chambers rather than work at home person. I seem to work much better working in chambers and it also gives you opportunity to go out for coffee and lunch and do things. In fact, if I work at home, I tend to work longer hours, so it's better coming in. But mostly in my head of chambers' room, which is next door to the clerks' room. If I stayed in the clerks' room there'd probably be too many interruptions — at least hopefully I've got a bit of peace and quiet here.

Orlagh Kelly: Yeah, so I've been looking forward for quite some time to getting you on as a guest. We've been working hard to secure you. Your reputation precedes you — I'm sure most of our audience will know who you are, but I know you as a kingmaker is almost the phrase that I would use, in terms of your essentially your investment in the barristers that you've worked with from the very early days of your clerking career and how they have progressed into being really eminent professionals on the bench, really, and beyond. So we're going to talk about that a little bit in a minute, but could you give the audience a bit of a synopsis of how did you get started and join the profession at the bar on the clerking side?

David Goddard: Right, well, I never thought about working in chambers. I did A level law, so I'd had an interest, and I actually was going to be an accountant. I had an apprenticeship. It was called an ICWA course — a five year course. I was due to start in January of 1972. So I'd finished doing an OND Business Studies in the summer of '71.

Wanted something to do between June and the end of the year. And my dear late mother knew somebody who knew somebody who worked in a set of barristers' chambers. So it was suggested I might go and become a barrister's clerk. It didn't actually appeal to me because I thought the last thing I wanted to be was a barrister. But I was told it wasn't about being a barrister. So I thought I'd give it a go.

Do something for six months. And over 50 years later, I'm still working. So that's it. And after doing the A level law, it gave me much more interest than I thought. And so yeah, there I am.

Orlagh Kelly: Okay. There you are. And which set did you start with?

David Goddard: I started at 1 Essex Court. I was there for 12 years. Which is now — well, Lord Grabiner just stood down. Lord Grabiner — I think he was the most junior member when I started. And they used to send him to Barking Magistrates Court, do things like that. So that's where I started.

Orlagh Kelly: And now he's a Lord Justice. He's a Lord Justice.

David Goddard: No, he's a Lord, but he hasn't become a judge or anything. But he's just recently, even after nearly 30 years, just stood down as head of chambers at 1 Essex Court. And in fact, I saw him in Chancery Lane last week.

Orlagh Kelly: Very good.

David Goddard: So.

Orlagh Kelly: And so what was the clerking world back in the early seventies?

David Goddard: Well, I think it's funny because trying to compare today to then — things were much more formal then, I would say. Stuffy. There was a bit of them and us, rather like upstairs, downstairs. I mean, everybody was suited and booted. I mean if you come into chambers now, it's a mixture of what people come in wearing — shorts, t-shirts. And in fact, I did a student on a tour around the Temple yesterday. And the number of sort of eminent barristers I passed dressed very casually. When I started, that would never be the case.

I think the other thing that's changed, for the better, is that, you know, I used to have to call my barristers when I started, sir. It was either. Now it's very much sort of first names. So even the junior clerks will call barristers by their first names. Here, some of the junior clerks will call the senior people by, you know, Mr. But by and large, it is first name terms. I think that's —

And it's quite — just when I came here, the head of chambers was Peter Curry, very senior. So I don't think I called him anything, but I never called anybody that joined after I came by their first names. I think anybody above that, I just didn't call him anything. So that's —

Orlagh Kelly: Just silence.

David Goddard: That's what's — yeah, I think that's what's changed. And of course, when I started, certainly no mobile phones, the photocopier hadn't been invented. As a consequence, when we go to court, taking authorities to court, you actually took the physical books. You had to strap the books up, take them into court, line them up on the bench. So, you know, that was —

Orlagh Kelly: You must have been very fit.

David Goddard: That's why the clerks in those days had long arms. And I think the one other thing — and I know Martin touched on this — there was absolutely no marketing at all. You didn't go out — in fact, it was called touting. So it would actually be a breach to go out and sell barrister services, which I do a lot of now.

Orlagh Kelly: And how — if you think about the fact that your job as a clerk for the most part was actually to sell barrister services, regardless of what the code of conduct allowed and the reference to touting — but that inherently was your role. How did you do that in a manner which was effective but keeping within the rules?

David Goddard: It was literally all done by telephone. Normally people would be asked for — you get the phone call, people would be asked for, if they were available they would do it. And if they weren't available, then you would use that opportunity to recommend somebody else, to make an introduction. Of course, in a sense that really still goes on today. But where it's different today, people go out to the market, knock on solicitors' doors, travel abroad as well, and sell the barristers' services in that way.

Orlagh Kelly: Do you think that is much more effective or is it only as effective?

David Goddard: It's interesting because we've upped our game in marketing in these chambers and we were slow to do so. But it's paid off. We now do a hell of a lot more work in Dubai, British Virgin Islands, etc. But I've always taken the view that the barrister is the best marketing tool. He goes to court. He does a very good case. The solicitor on the other side sees him do well in the case and they want to instruct him. And that to me is the best form of marketing. The barristers are doing their job, being seen to be doing the job, being seen to be user friendly and somebody that they might want to instruct. Yeah.

Orlagh Kelly: Don't give away all of your top secrets now because everyone will be here to copy them.

David Goddard: No no, not giving anything away, I've got my own chambers.

Orlagh Kelly: And well, you know, I agree with you. I think that's — if I recall back, I didn't have a clerk when I practised because I worked in Northern Ireland, but I mean certainly I got instructions from typically my opposite number's instructing solicitor on occasion. And so, back — I mean the rules changed in England and Wales quite some time ago, but still even in around 2012, 2014 in Northern Ireland, we weren't allowed to have a website or business cards or in any way tout for work as it was described. And so yes, I had to build up my practice in that much more traditional way of just hopefully doing a good job and being seen to do so. So I mean it's — I'm talking to you about what life was like back in the seventies, but that was the early noughties for me. Very good. And so in terms — we talked about you mentioning obviously having — even so long ago — the photocopier not being invented and having to take those books and those authorities to court for your barristers. I think that creates that vision that a lot of people do have of clerks, which is with the trolleys at that very junior end. Now it might be a lot of boxes of papers, but back then it was books that were having to go around.

David Goddard: There wasn't so much in terms of paper, but what the photocopier brought is that the law reports get copied. For some reason or other, every case now has files and files of files. And, you know, sometimes you can have junior clerks who take trolley loads of files. And I think that's got a bit too much.

And I think there was one particular judge who had a case and when he was referred every time a page was referred to, he put it in a file. And at the end of the trial, he had one lever arch file and they said, you know, you've come with 50 files, but in fact, the documents could have all been put in one file. So it has got a bit too much. But of course, more recently it's completely changed again, because we have big trials. We did two very big trials — we did the Mozambique case and Autonomy, which were north of about 90 files on one of the trials. But you didn't take them all to court because of Opus. Everything's done on a laptop, which you know, which I'm using here. Yeah. So we can have a big trial and they may take a couple of folders, but that's it. Everything's electronic. So it's gone completely the opposite way now. It's incredible.

Orlagh Kelly: Very good. And so from your perspective then, thinking about when you started out as a junior clerk and how the junior clerks are starting out in the world they're in now, has that role of a clerk changed or evolved over the years?

David Goddard: Yeah, I think when I started you did everything — I described it as head cook and bottle washer — and chambers were small. So you did everything. It's changed a lot now — chambers are larger, so you have teams of clerks, you have people to deal specifically with marketing, finance, accounts, etc.

So that's where it very much has changed. But what I don't think has changed — and it certainly hasn't here — is the sort of barrister-clerk relationship. You know, I have been around for a long time and I've got 39 barristers. I think there are only three that I haven't interviewed for pupillage and seen from pupillage to silk and then, you know, even to the High Court bench. Yeah. And there's still that barrister-clerk relationship. So I think that's still there. And I was lucky to get the Lifetime Achievement Award in 2019. And that's the start of my speech — I said that when anybody breaks down on the motorway, they call the AA. A barrister calls his clerk. And that happened to me. I didn't make it up. It actually happened to me.

Orlagh Kelly: And what did you do?

David Goddard: Told him to ring the AA.

Orlagh Kelly: And so fair to say then that you solve all sorts of problems for your barristers — it's not just work related. You form relationships that go a lifetime, inside and outside of work. Would that be correct?

David Goddard: Yes, you definitely form relationships and all barristers are different. You have different relationships with each of them. And it is a sort of — a unique, definitely a unique relationship. There was — he died last year — but there was a member who actually left me for another set of chambers, but then retired. And he actually said to me, you weren't just my clerk, you were my friend. Which is, you know, in lots of ways — and I feel that with some of my members here. It's not just a professional relationship, it's sort of a friendship that's developed. Because also as a clerk, you do get involved with their personal lives. You know, some of them have not been straightforward, and sadness, etc. So you're dealing with that as well. Yeah. And sometimes you can be the first port of call when there's any sort of family issues, for instance.

Orlagh Kelly: And so you did your first twelve years — I think I heard you there, if I heard correctly — at 1 Essex Court.

David Goddard: I think it was, yeah, about 12 years at 1 Essex Court.

Orlagh Kelly: And then —

David Goddard: Yeah, I came up to 4 Stone Buildings as senior clerk. And I must say, it was not an easy decision to leave 1 Essex. Yeah. I liked it down there. But I needed to row my own boat, hence I came up here. And they looked like they were a set that could be going somewhere. And here we are — this is my 41st year in chambers and I think I can look back and say, I think I did what they asked of me. We've got recognised as a top commercial set and we've got some very successful silks and juniors.

And I've been part of that process.

Orlagh Kelly: And what would some of the highlights be for you if you think through the years — in terms possibly of big cases, or do you have celebrity cases that you've been on?

David Goddard: Yeah, I mean, there's lots of sort of — yeah, we've had a good fair share of cases. But, you know, in terms of — I mean, to be honest, every new case that comes in gives me a bounce. It's something new to deal with. And, you know, over the years — we did a lot on the Maxwell cases, some of the big consultancy cases.

I mentioned recently the Autonomy and Mozambique big trials. And Jonathan Crow — I clerked him when he was First Treasury Counsel. So he did exclusive work for the government. That was enjoyable. And I've been lucky that two members have been Attorney General to the Duchy of Lancaster — Dean of the Queen's household. Jonathan Crow had been previously Attorney General to the Duchy of Cornwall, which now Sharif Chiftey does. And that's, you know, those appointments, them getting those appointments and being involved in that — it's all things that, you know, you can be proud of really. Yeah.

Orlagh Kelly: And the work that you put in to help build their careers from — yeah, absolutely.

David Goddard: And help them.

Someone in another chamber thought I had some connection with the Royal Family because we've had the Attorney General so often, but that's not — I certainly haven't.

Orlagh Kelly: You're here to say that that is definitely not true. And in your role now — forty-one years into this role as senior clerk — what is your day-to-day role? Does it continue to be that very much clerking, managing the —

David Goddard: It's not true.

Yes, it does. But probably less so because, you know, unfortunately, I can't go on forever. But I'm very lucky that I've got two people who work well together under me. And I would, you know, I'd be honest to say that I've been delegating a lot more over the last few years and seeing them doing the things that I was doing for that next step.

And now I come in every day as if I'm still doing the clerking, selling the barrister services. But as a senior clerk and in a set like this, I'm also still the head cook and bottle washer — the chief executive, if you like. So I'm dealing with the buildings, I'm dealing with staff issues, any barrister has any issues, et cetera.

And of course, you know, IT and cyber — all those sort of things. Data things and would be involved with that as well. So my day — yeah, I do come every day and occasionally I will answer the telephone. And I think in the early days, that was the first thing every time — you're keen to pick up the telephone, see what the next case is coming in. I tend not to do that now, in case people might ask for me.

But it's quite interesting — sometimes I do help out with the telephone and a solicitor comes round and says, what are you doing answering the phone? I still enjoy it. I still do.

Orlagh Kelly: Your feet on the ground, absolutely. And talking about fathers and sons — of course you have your own somewhat dynasty within the clerking world, although I understand Mark has now moved on, but your own son followed you in your footsteps.

David Goddard: Oh, yes. And I've also got a stepson in the profession as well. But I know it was no encouragement, I can assure you. But likewise, you know, he wanted a bit of work experience. He did a bit of work experience in chambers. And probably like I did when I started, I thought, yes, I like this. So he's just done 26 years. And he's now working for his wife-to-be's law firm, I don't know if you — so he's still in the legal profession, you know.

Orlagh Kelly: All of those good skills. It's certainly the case that clerking seems to be a profession or a role that just simply fits some people and they like to do it and they stay on. You know, almost everybody I've spoken to have gone into it by accident or because someone else got them a role. You know, and again that might have been how it was done back in the day a little bit more than now.

David Goddard: Yeah, I think that's right. I mean, we've got a student here at the moment on a scheme from the Bar Council. And they had to spend some time in the clerks' room — she had no idea what a clerk did. Yeah. And I think that's right. It's such an unusual, neat profession. But it is. And it's one of those where you can't — you're not taught it, and you can't actually study it — you learn very much on the job. And I have seen some junior clerks come in and it's not suited them. And they either can't sort of deal with barristers or they just lack a bit of common sense. I think what barristers' clerks have, which barristers sometimes don't have — no disrespect — there's common sense, you know. And I think that's where we play a part.

Orlagh Kelly: Yeah, it's a team sport really.

David Goddard: Yeah, yeah, definitely.

Orlagh Kelly: And so my notes are telling me here that you've become known as a clerk who's old school in all the very best ways. Were you aware of that?

David Goddard: Well, yeah. I won't slightly deny that I probably sort of do things in an old-fashioned way. And one of the things I did enjoy when I started is going to court with the barristers — in particular Sam Stamler, who was a very busy practitioner down there. And I had time to take him to court, take his books. But then I'd always stay and listen for a while. And then when I used to need to pick him up in the evening, I used to go early so I could listen at the end. And in that way, I also got to meet the solicitors that were instructing him. And I still do that today.

If we've got a big trial on or someone's in court, I will go down to court, meet obviously before it starts. It gives me an opportunity to have a couple of minutes with the instructing solicitor and then sit in court five or ten minutes and listen and then make my exit. I don't go down in the evenings anymore, but I still do that. And I think that's probably old school.

But I think also talking about marketing — I go to court, I see the solicitor for a short space of time. I don't spend, you know — because he hasn't got time to talk — but I'm making a presence. And I think that's in a sense a good form of marketing. And also the barrister likes it. And I just enjoy doing it. We've a Supreme Court hearing next week. And I always go down the first day of the Supreme Court hearing. So the ushers know me down there, the listing people know me down there, and I still enjoy that. That's probably old school.

Orlagh Kelly: Yeah. And so would you suggest — I'm just thinking, you know, if you had to think about the principles of being a successful clerk over your more than 50 years, what are the core principles that any clerk could apply now, regardless of the changes of technology and the profession, that would lead to their success?

David Goddard: I think the communication is very important. Speaking to the barristers constantly, all the time. I mean, again, we're quite lucky here. People come in all the time. So you see people. Hearing what Martin was saying, they probably don't see their barristers very often. So I don't quite know how that communication works. And I think you've always got to be willing — and be yourself, be willing to smile — even if it's not something you want to do. And the other thing I tell junior clerks is what I call the light bulb syndrome. You know the light bulb syndrome, have you heard of this?

Orlagh Kelly: No, I don't think so.

David Goddard: So a barrister comes into the clerks' room and says to a junior clerk — You know, my light bulb needs changing. Nobody wants to change the light bulb — they're full of it, they're doing much more important, they might be agreeing a brief, they might be arranging a conference, et cetera. And so we won't do it. But in the barrister's mind, he's not very efficient because he hasn't changed his light bulb. And I've literally been at a chambers week when we're talking about members of staff, where a barrister was complaining about how useless a junior clerk was — and it turned out it was because he didn't change his light bulb. He agreed a brief for a hearing the next day, but he hadn't changed his light bulb. So what do I say to the junior clerk? The barrister asks you to change their light bulb — do it immediately. They think you're brilliant and efficient. You know, you might go and cock up something with the diary, but in their mindset you're still brilliant. So that's what I call the light bulb syndrome.

Orlagh Kelly: The light bulb syndrome, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I guess being there to help them regardless of whatever it is that they need.

David Goddard: Yeah, whatever they need — we're here to make their lives easier. And it's funny with the light bulb — if I'm in a room here and all the bulbs are on. In fact what we do, we have a regular person that comes in and checks all the light bulbs. So my junior clerks don't do it because we have someone to do it. Yeah.

Orlagh Kelly: Your barristers always have good light.

David Goddard: I think for barristers — if they ask you to do an easy job, do it straight away because they'll remember. That's one of my tips for junior clerks.

Orlagh Kelly: And one of the things that I want to think about — if we turn it backwards, given the number of junior clerks you'll obviously have brought through as well during your career, is there any time that you can think of that they have taught you something, that you've learned something from them? That they've opened your eyes.

David Goddard: I'm trying to think of that. The way I think where they are so helpful to me and good is IT — because I'm still, you know, a little bit of a dinosaur with IT technology and they are so good. And they will help me out all the time, and you know, willingly and do so. But now I mean, what I enjoy seeing from my own staff is the enthusiasm. And we've got a good team here and I'm not somebody that asks a junior clerk to go and make a cup of tea for themselves. I will go and ask them — I'm going downstairs, do you want a coffee or tea?

Orlagh Kelly: And so if you think about your experience during your career and particularly in 4 Stone Buildings, do you have a moment that you look back on as your proudest? You've mentioned a few that are all really stellar high points in anybody's career, but anything you look back on most fondly?

David Goddard: Now I think — because there's been a number, you know, each time I see a barrister doing well, and it's always a good moment when a junior barrister becomes a silk. And I've seen — I go to the bench as well. When they get their appointments, they're all things that you can't help but be proud of and feel that you're part of it.

So, yeah, plenty of those moments. I've also taken great pleasure because I've been involved with the Institute of Barristers' Clerks (IBC). I was chairman, what, 15 years ago. And, you know, I'm still involved with the IBC. And I think that's a very good thing as well. I'm also pleased the way that clerks and the IBC have got better relationships now with the Bar Council.

And also with the Legal Practice Managers Association (LPMA) because there was a time when clerks were a bit concerned that people from the outside were coming in to be involved with chambers and there was a bit of resentment at one stage. But now that's all changed and in fact I was at the LPMA drinks last night and they're a really good crowd.

And all that animosity has gone. And the way chambers are, that's the way forward. You need people with those skills as well as the traditional clerk who's selling the barrister services.

Orlagh Kelly: You mention a book. Is that what you're thinking about — if you ever retire from chambers, that you'll —

David Goddard: Yeah, I think I've more or less started it. I've jotted down a number of stories. Simon Brown — who became Lord Brown — he wrote a book and each chapter is a different story and I was thinking about doing something like that. So yeah, I think I'd like to do something, I think, yeah.

Orlagh Kelly: Well, that will be something worth looking out for. Very good. Well, thank you so much for coming on. It looks like for any kind of more spicy stories, we're going to have to wait for the book. We will talk to you again, no doubt, and thank you for your time.

David Goddard: Pleasure. All right, see ya.