Orlagh Kelly: Well, welcome to the Get Briefed podcast. I'm delighted to welcome our guest today, Imogen Robins from Pump Court Chambers. Imogen is a leading family law barrister, but also the founder of Legally Flushed, an initiative that aims to connect women working in the legal industry and ensure that they lead happy lives and reap the rewards that come from working in law. Imogen, welcome. Thank you very much for your time.

Imogen Robins: Thank you so much, Orlagh. It's such a privilege to be on your podcast. I've been watching the work that you're doing through Briefed over quite a number of years now, and it's fantastic. So I was thrilled that you asked me to be on the podcast. Thank you so much.

Orlagh Kelly: Thank you. So can you tell the audience a little bit about yourself before we move into your newest venture, which I know has been very successful? What is your background as a barrister? How did you get here?

Imogen Robins: Yes, well, I didn't come from a traditional background as a barrister. None of my family were in law and I really have one of my teachers at A level to thank for sparking my interest in getting into a legal career. I went to the Central Criminal Court, the Old Bailey, as a 17-year-old and I was absolutely captivated by the trial — there was a criminal trial — seeing the theatre of the courtroom, the wigs and gowns, and I thought, wow, I would love to do that. And then I went to London, I did a law degree, I didn't go anywhere particularly prestigious, not Oxford or Cambridge. And then I think my confidence was shaken as a young woman.

I didn't pursue my dream and I ended up working in a property investment company and it was so boring working on commercial leases that I thought is this really going to be my life stuck in a basement surrounded by a whole load of files — because we didn't have a database then, this is 30 years ago — and I thought I've got to go for my dream and so many people were very, very discouraging because it's such a tough profession to get into. And of course, I didn't have any connections, but I met somebody who championed me and he worked as an outdoor clerk at a criminal solicitors' firm. And he said, go for it Imogen. And he introduced me to some barristers. And so I ended up getting a pupillage in the criminal chambers, which was incredibly exciting because they did the Guinness trial, they were involved in Brink's Mat, and there I was as this very young woman from Swansea, suddenly being exposed to this incredibly exciting life in London. But I looked about 12, and I don't think that I was ever going to be taken that seriously in crime. And I used to go off around the various magistrates' courts in London, but I really had the sense that it probably wasn't for me. And I got a pupillage then as a third six, because often at that time you didn't get taken on in your own chambers where you'd done pupillage. And I moved to a set in Southampton and there they did general common law. I did a third six and I did a lot of family work.

And that's how I ended up as a family law barrister because for some reason I think I'm very personable and probably have a lot of empathy for people. And I just found that the family briefs were building up. I was doing jury trials, but it's much harder, I think, to go between the two to an extent. And I got to about seven years call and I thought, the market is taking me into family law. I probably am not going to be the criminal barrister I thought I was going to be. And so I segued into family law and the rest is history, but it was tough. It was a lot. I didn't have a great deal of money. My family didn't have a great deal of money. And there was that constant battle of how was I going to pay the bills? How was I going to pay my rent? And it's really down to very, very kind people who supported me that I was able to remain in the profession. And they actually came from outside of my family. So I think that's how I came to be in law. And then eventually I ended up in the wonderful Pump Court Chambers with a fantastic group of people, a wonderful senior clerk in Tony Atkins — just brilliant people — and I've been so privileged to have had this career now that spans 30 years.

Orlagh Kelly: That's incredible. Of course, 30 years ago was kind of mid-90s. Is that in and around when you would have been called and when you started your journey at the bar?

Imogen Robins: I went to the bar in 1991. 1991. That really dates me, doesn't it?

Orlagh Kelly: What I want to expand on is: what was your experience like then versus what young pupils — and I guess young female pupils particularly — might go through now in 2024. Any thoughts on that?

Imogen Robins: I think then there were a lot of — it was still very male-dominated and I think the clerks' room very male-dominated as well. And it was hugely intimidating. I remember going to the Old Bailey with my pupil master and I had a skirt on, had a very nice little black jacket, didn't have a great deal of money. So I bought one suit and I thought I can match it with a little black skirt that had white flecks in it.

And my pupil master said to me, Imogen, you might like to think about what you're wearing, that skirt — which was a black skirt with this tiny little white fleck in it — that's probably not appropriate for the Old Bailey. And he went into the mess at the Old Bailey and it was thick with smoke and all these criminal silks who were predominantly male, I would imagine mostly male, sitting there and you walked in as a young woman and you stuck out like a sore thumb and I remember having to almost take a deep breath and make myself bigger and think I can do this, I can do this. And I also remember going into court and again predominantly male judges and that battle to almost be taken seriously going on in your head — that imposter syndrome of not feeling worthy. And you can see that it is changing, but the change is still gradual. But our Lady Chief Justice is now a woman. There are a lot of initiatives driving women forward. And I hope that through the work that I'm doing and the work that other organisations are doing, that women are beginning to take their rightful place within the profession. But of course, progress is, we know, very slow. But you are seeing a lot more women coming through and a lot more women getting into those positions where they can make a difference. But we need more of them because it's tough. It's tough.

Orlagh Kelly: It's a tough job and that leads nicely into your initiative called Legally Flushed and I think we're in and around your one year anniversary of having set that up, is that correct?

Imogen Robins: Yes, that's correct. And Legally Flushed was formed really out of my work as a family barrister. And there were a number of things that came together, probably three. And that was working on the gender pay and pensions gap, because one of my areas of specialty and interest has been pensions. I'm reading that women on average have to work 17 years longer than men to get the same pension. And that really struck me as quite stark. And at the bar, obviously, we're self-employed, we don't have pensions in England and Wales. And so most barristers are largely forced into working throughout their entire career until really they can work no longer. The other thing that was coming to the fore was menopause, perimenopause and how there is an attrition rate of women both when they have babies but also when they reach menopause — that we tend to lose women. That was another area of interest and then the other thing that struck me was the difference that women were experiencing in getting into positions of authority and responsibility where they could make a difference. And that was really in the upper echelons of the judiciary and in taking silk. If you look at these statistics, women are far less likely to take silk than men. We now know that when women come to the bar, even in the first year, they're earning 17% less than the men. And by the time they reach 11 to 15 years call, they're earning on average 30% less and that is across all practice groups.

Orlagh Kelly: Why is that, Imogen, and do you know why that is? What do you think are the contributory factors?

Imogen Robins: I think it's a combination of factors and certainly I think more research needs to be done. But at the beginning in the first year, why would that be? How could that possibly be? And I think a lot of it comes down probably to inherent gender bias against women. I've experienced it myself and I remember speaking to somebody and saying, why is this? Why aren't women earning as much as men? And a lot of it could be the marketplace — that potentially men are seen as more commercial. They have deeper voices. People want to be represented by a man. And it's that unconscious bias potentially. I don't think that we know exactly, but Legally Flushed is very much about men and women. It's not just women forging ahead, we need male allies. My greatest supporter is my husband. He makes the dinner every evening. He encourages me to go for things and so many of the men that I've met want to see this change.

Hugh Miles at Paris Smith, for example, he's changing his law firm. He's the managing partner. We've got Tony Atkins, who's our senior clerk. He's very much a huge supporter of women and wanting to see that change, supporting women coming back into practice, supporting women through coming through menopause, making sure that across the board, people don't experience burnout. So I don't think that we can necessarily put it down to one specific thing. But women need to help themselves. That's my view. I don't think we can say, well, it's external factors. I set up Legally Flushed because I believe by connecting women, we will have a greater voice.

Orlagh Kelly: So just on that point then, understanding where your impetus and your drive came from, noting obviously where you were working with pensions and understanding the statistics, the Bar Council have been wonderful at pulling together reports frequently to identify where there's been progress and where there perhaps hasn't been progress. All of these things have pushed you and driven you alongside your very busy practice to set up something new. So what does Legally Flushed do on a practical level so that the audience can understand.

Imogen Robins: Yes, so really we're coming at it from a number of angles because I think what is essential is that women have the confidence to self-promote because self-promotion is key and I think that's something we've shied away from — something that's been very, very difficult. So one of the things that we're looking at is coaching, mentorship, wellbeing and health and lifestyle, because it's one thing to have a successful practice and to be making a lot of money, but if you're burning out in the process, that's not good. So I think Legally Flushed is very much about this holistic approach to the advancement of women, because women are generally very successful. But I look at my friends and one of the drivers is I'm at an age now where, arguably speaking, my colleagues at the bar are at the height of their profession. But time and time again, when I'm saying to my good friends, are you applying for Silk? Are you applying to go into the judiciary? A lot of them, they've had so much on their plate to get to where they are that I think they're just exhausted to go to that advancement. So they're saying, no, I won't apply for Silk. How could I possibly do that? No, I've tried. I've maybe had a go getting into the judiciary and they maybe applied once and it hasn't worked out and they've stopped. I think Legally Flushed is really about what experiences can older women, mature women like me pass on to younger women — that holistically we are working to improve the profession and to change it from the inside and see that moving outwards. And I look at my own experiences, I found it incredibly tough as a young mum, putting my daughter to bed, knowing I was starting work again, knowing she'd probably be waking up in the night and knowing then I had to get her to school and I had to get to work. And it was relentless. And I thought, is this ever going to end? But now she's 22 and I feel I've had a renaissance and Legally Flushed for me was very much about how can I use my experiences and those of my connections to try and make things better and to let younger women within the profession — who may have children, who may not have children — to know that yes, we see you, we are with you and it does get better but have that confidence to know that you have a rightful place in the profession, that you are here, we see you and let's collectively make this a better world for the next generation. And I felt after 30 years, my legacy was to very much see change. And I want Legally Flushed really to be for women of all cultures and of diverse backgrounds, not simply for this country, but really to see it going worldwide because we need women in positions of authority to see justice done, don't we? And to see justice come. We know that we can affect change, but we just have to have that platform to do it. So I'm really hoping that Legally Flushed can be a platform to do that.

Orlagh Kelly: And so what struck me and really resonated with me when you talk about using your experience of a woman who's been at the bar for 25 odd years and the challenges that you've overcome and experienced through that process and helping the younger generation as they come through, in a way, cope with those challenges easier and better because they don't necessarily have to learn everything from scratch. There's someone there to help them. And it does strike me that through any career, you know, from the age of say 22, 23 until possibly 70, you know, if you really keep working until that age, which lots of people do, there are so many challenges and ups and downs that of course you need help. You need a mentor style person or people around you. And those people might change throughout the different parts of your career — that early stage when you're starting to get known and building your practice, versus the young family stage, versus the trying to go for silk or go to the bench. And I think as self-employed individuals, you are intrinsically in quite a lonely place. That's my sense. And people have insecurities and there's not necessarily, without a group of people that are well-intended and there to support you, that confidence doesn't come necessarily from within. You rely on a support network. And I think historically that hasn't always been there for any group within the bar, any set of people. I'll include men, but women particularly trying to move forward could have benefited from it much earlier on. And as I listened to you, I reflected on my own career when I practised for 12 years. And now in the kind of ten years since I've finished practising, in my new role, I have mentors that help me elevate my thinking, think outside the box, be more creative, have confidence. And I'm kind of thinking out loud on our podcast — I'm not sure that existed for me in my role as a practising barrister. I can only assume that it's an excellent initiative and that the people that are benefiting from it must be extremely grateful. And so just on a practical level, so I can get my head around this, do you run events? I know that you've had some very successful events where you start to raise awareness of what this is. And how have you found that? Even organising an event is something different from your normal everyday life in court, obviously.

Imogen Robins: Yes, well, it's really growing organically. I'm not looking for world takeover. It's very much through word of mouth that it will grow. And then people from other countries get involved. I've had them approach me. But the events that we've run so far have spanned all areas really — from people who are coaches, Joy Oghe-Hutfield was very instrumental in helping me plan the conference, which was called Supporting Your Success, where we looked at all the various issues affecting women from menopause. Jennifer Williamson had written a book on menopause and she spoke for us. We had Keeley Lengthorn on baby loss policies and George's Law. She spoke for us. I had my senior clerk. He was fantastic and came and spoke about the initiatives within chambers. But you're absolutely right. Mentorship is key. And one of the people who really helped me was someone called Danielle Taylor at Paris Smith. And she's a mentor and had benefited from mentorship herself. And I thought Legally Flushed was going to be potentially about menopause. And when I told her the name, she said, that's the royal flush in cards. That's all about success and making money. I love it. And I just thought, Dani, you're absolutely right. This can't just be for mature women. This has to be for all women because we have to hand on the learning experiences. Loneliness, I think, is something you rightly touch on at the bar. We don't work generally collaboratively — unless you're being led by somebody or you're in court a lot as a criminal barrister, a lot of your work is done on your own and it can be incredibly lonely. And I have to say that's probably a driver for me — that post-pandemic, because of course this was set up post-pandemic, coming together is so important, isn't it? Because we're dealing sometimes with people in crisis, very difficult cases, and you can feel so alone. And people aren't always coming into chambers anymore. And that spirit of the collegiate nature of the bar is being lost. And I think it does take initiatives like Legally Flushed and others to really bring people together and let them know that they're not alone. The bar is such a lonely profession. And I think that's why people struggle often with mental health and wellbeing, probably why people will maybe drink more or find themselves attracted to areas where they can escape. And I think we want to have healthy ways of dealing with those lifestyle issues. And I know in my own life, I've had to take charge of getting up much earlier than I would normally want to so that I can meditate, so that I can think about my goals and I can have time in the morning to invest in myself. And I had to reprogram myself to get up at 5, 5.30 so that I at least have a good hour before I start my working day to invest in myself. And that's tough. That has not been easy, but I think I've been able to do Legally Flushed as a result of that.

Orlagh Kelly: Also, I mean, it's certainly interesting that you've made a daily change. Was there a particular impetus for that? There are various books out there that talk about the 5am. Was it something that you read about or watched on social media that made you do that or something more traditional?

Imogen Robins: No, it was a crisis in my life. During the pandemic, my husband lost his job. He was unemployed for 18 months. He was a high flyer in the city. And suddenly it was down to me to support the family. And I thought, how am I going to do this? I had my daughter in crisis because her school had closed and she couldn't take her A levels. And I had my husband pretty much in crisis because he didn't have a job. And I thought I can either fall apart here or I can take control of my life and believe in something better. So in a sense, Legally Flushed was, and my lifestyle change was born out of crisis. And I think often it takes crisis for us to change, doesn't it? And I'm really pleased to say that my daughter went on, she's gone on to have good success. My husband now has a fantastic job and that's great, but it was really that that was the impetus for me. So I would say, don't neglect yourself. Don't neglect yourself because I've come out so much stronger, so much happier in a much better place for exercise, meditation and journaling. And yes, those things are out there, but I almost fell into them because I had that choice. Be crushed, fall apart, or actually take control.

Orlagh Kelly: Yeah, well, your positive attitude is not only impressive, but contagious. I'm almost thinking already, what could I do? How could I adopt some new practices that will lengthen the day and help me be more productive and follow my dreams, I guess, which is some of it. And so I want one thing that I'm always interested in when I speak to a barrister that has set up something — not a side hustle, I don't want to call it that as such — but a business or an initiative that is different to their daily, very serious practice. So obviously that is something that I did and I moved into the world of business. Even though I was self-employed practising at the bar, when I moved into the world of business, that was a big change and I found it invigorating and exciting and the world of opportunity opened up to me that I hadn't previously been really aware of when I was practising at the bar. And so that was a wonderful thing for me on a personal and professional level. And I tended to find that even though I had more work to do, that I was energised by my new project. And I always therefore wonder with other barristers, what was your experience in terms of setting up this extra business or initiative?

Imogen Robins: Well, I can tell you exactly what happened. I was introduced to somebody called Joy Oghe-Hutfield and Joy, I told her about Legally Flushed and I thought, oh, I don't know that I'm going to do it. And she said, no, you must do it. You'll set it up on International Women's Day. You've got a month to do it. And I said, you've got to be joking. I need a year to do it. And she said, it's such a great thing. And I think it could really make a difference. You need to do it. And I did. And I think because I was so encouraged by her and encouraged by the women that I had around me to do it, I did it. And it was exhausting. But to see the launch day and to see so many people afterwards coming up — and with the conference as well that we had last October — to hear them saying, this has really made a difference, we need more of this. And also the men being so encouraging, I think that was the impetus to keep going. And I can't pretend that it's easy, but I think I'm beginning to get a team around me who are enormously helpful. And I have a virtual assistant. If there's one thing I would say to people at the bar, get a virtual assistant if you can. It's particularly when you get to a certain point in your practice because they can really help you with some of the admin. I don't know about you, Orlagh, but the email is relentless. And to have somebody to help you manage your life can make all the difference. And just a few hours a month, that's made a big difference. And she's helped me enormously and is very enthusiastic and positive.

Orlagh Kelly: I would certainly find that and I often wonder about it, but I do think that barristers should typically try to do everything themselves for the most part. I think that that comes back to — certainly in my case — bootstrapping as I would describe it, when you were a new barrister and you didn't know where the next brief was coming from and when you would get the next cheque and what that would cover. The outgoings of running a business and a practice kept going every month, but the cheques didn't necessarily stack up in the same way. And that, I know, doesn't change at all.

Imogen Robins: I wish I could say 30 years down the line that it's changed. I think we are inherently so insecure as a profession. If you haven't got a lot of work lined up, you think you're not loved. And you have to overcome that. I think you have to overcome that.

Orlagh Kelly: And I think that that insecurity does just keep going. I recall when I was at the height of my practice and I had as many cases as I wanted, if I had a quiet week, maybe just one day in court, I would immediately start to wonder, was my career over? And I tried to remind myself that it always was swings and roundabouts and that I should enjoy that week. But there's a little voice inside your brain saying, that's it, you're finished for some reason. And it never left. And I don't know if it ever leaves. But it does then, I think, essentially create some restrictions as you operate as a business. So you don't get a virtual assistant because of the outgoings of that type of a thing, or you don't go and do that extra training course or go to that conference because you're concerned about the ticket price. And in a strange way, the insecurity and the bootstrapping mentality from the start, if you've had to have that mentality, can in itself be restrictive and hold you back. Whereas actually you have to spend money to make money, you have to network, you have to get people to take administrative tasks off your desk so that you can spend time doing that which will move your business and revenue forward. That I do think is quite difficult for barristers just because of the journey that we're typically on.

Imogen Robins: Yes, I think it's key to invest in ourselves, isn't it? And I think as women, we are so poor at doing that. I think we always put everybody generally before ourselves and we have that weight of responsibility as well. And I would say — if particularly for women and maybe there are couples who are both barristers — if your chambers has a maternity, paternity, parental leave policy, make sure that you share it so that you're equally able to have that time. And that's one way of investing in yourself. Another way of investing in yourself is actually thinking, well, what do I need to earn for this year? Because I think I've now taken the view — look at what do I need to earn for this year to meet my outgoings? I don't need to consistently be driving myself to the point of exhaustion — and really have those goals in mind. And look at maybe opportunities that are coming up, conferences. I know that you are spearheading an amazing conference. I know that you have fantastic resources on your website. Briefed has a menopause training, it has baby loss training, and I think that you have training as well on career and business development. Take those with Briefed, take the GDPR because you're providing such a phenomenal resource to the profession. And I've taken some of those trainings and they are excellent. I've done your baby loss training. I've done your menopause training and the GDPR. Yeah, so that's really, really important. So don't be afraid because you'll reap the benefits. Every penny I've spent on myself has repaid me enormously. I trained as an arbitrator and I made the money back within a couple of months. So do that, definitely.

Orlagh Kelly: Thank you for that shout out. Well, I do agree — circling back a little bit, when you talk about identifying what your goals are. And again running a business now where we have budgets and projections and all of that type of thing, I would have benefited from business planning at the bar. And part of that is, well, what's your goal and when do you want to reach that and how many cases do you need of what size to pay you? How do you get there? And it's working backwards, because then at least you know that you're reaching some level of achievement. But the opposite side of that — which is what I did, and it sounds like you did it too — is just working to get more and more cases to make money in case you don't get the next case, without any structure or milestones. It doesn't give you a real sense of achievement. I do think there is an opportunity for business planning for barristers. And I do know that some sets of chambers are rolling that out and they call it different things, but it's ultimately goal setting, business planning — practice reviews are what a lot of them call it. That's a wonderful resource for those sets of chambers that engage and help their members with that.

Imogen Robins: Gosh, that sounds amazing to me.

Orlagh Kelly: Yes, I think it's all part of the package and I think for me part of developing ourselves is thinking, well, don't just be reactive, be proactive — and whatever initiatives are out there that grab your attention, go for them. But I think that's key and it needs to be talked about very early on, doesn't it, business development.

Imogen Robins: Business development is really key and understanding that you run a business and you're the product. And as a consequence, if you want to be successful, you have to contribute to that. You can't leave it all to your clerking team — you have to contribute to that.

Orlagh Kelly: Absolutely. I very much take the view: it's my business, the buck stops with me. If I'm not successful and the product isn't doing well, then I have to look to myself. Yes, you can have help from chambers. You can have help from your clerks. But I think we have to embrace lifelong learning and personal development. And I think that's what Legally Flushed is about. It's about supporting people's success and seeing women take their rightful place. It's absolutely key that we continue to do that.

Orlagh Kelly: Well, I'm trying, I'm certainly trying. And so what I'm wondering is how can people help you with Legally Flushed — if you had an ask for anyone in the audience, is there anything that they could help you with?

Imogen Robins: Absolutely. Well, I'm Imogen Robins at Pump Court Chambers. I'm there on LinkedIn. You can find me on my chambers website. There are a couple of key things that I'm looking into doing. One is to set up a community interest company. And that is on the basis that we can look to raising the money. And one of the things that is really key for me is diversity and that women from diverse backgrounds should have the opportunity to come to the bar. It's so expensive. We need to be in schools in all areas of the country. And what I would like to do — and I think my goal and my vision — is to set up some form of scholarship and mentorship for young women who are still in school to be able to come into the profession and feel it's for them. Because that's really something that we can do that can make a difference. I think the average barrister now comes out with £60,000 worth of debt to start their career. That's frightening, isn't it? And if you are coming from a background where maybe your parents don't have much money, that's an immediate barrier, isn't it? So I would like to be able to set up a company to go out and get the sponsorship and get the money to be able to further that so that justice is not just for a small part of the population, that it's for everybody. So that's a long-term goal. But I think if anybody would like to be involved, if this initiative resonates with anybody, then please do get in touch and I'm particularly interested in any men who are interested in allyship because they are the stakeholders largely at the moment in the institutions that we need to bring about change — both in the barristers' profession and in the solicitors' profession and globally — because women need to be doing better.

Orlagh Kelly: Yeah, well, we'll include all of your contact details underneath the details of the podcast to help people get in touch. You are such an inspiring person and such an inspiring speaker. It's been wonderful having you here. Thank you. I'm sure we could talk on forever. But one last thing — what does the future hold for Legally Flushed and for Imogen?

Imogen Robins: Well, our next initiative is going to be the Legally Flushed Awards because we want — for our first year — to recognise women who are doing well. It'll be a bit of fun and have a little bit of music, some inspiring speakers, and to really start to elevate women, but do it in a fun way. Yes, so that's our next thing — the Legally Flushed Awards. So do watch out for that.

Orlagh Kelly: Okay, absolutely. And what about Imogen? What are your thoughts? Any more ideas for new initiatives, or do you have any ideas what you're thinking of for yourself?

Imogen Robins: You know, what am I thinking of for myself? Well, I'm very keen on having more connection with, as I say, people from diverse backgrounds and maybe people from outside of the UK who this resonates with, because I believe that it's something that could take off in many countries because we are living in a global economy, aren't we? And I think whatever I can do to light a spark for anybody else, I'd be very happy to help them set something up in their country.

Orlagh Kelly: Well, that sounds good. An international arm of Legally Flushed. Thank you so much for your time. I've really enjoyed our conversation and I look forward to catching up with you very soon.

Imogen Robins: Thank you.