Orlagh Kelly: So welcome Kathryn Stone OBE to the Get Briefed podcast again. Thank you very much for joining.

Kathryn Stone OBE: Thank you for having me.

Orlagh Kelly: I know you've got a busy week. You have a wonderful event tomorrow night at Inner Temple, I believe, where you are going to address the Bar and all of the key stakeholders with your farewell speech.

Kathryn Stone OBE: I am indeed and of course I'm supposed to say I'm really excited about it rather than say I'm terrified but somewhere between the two is the truth.

Orlagh Kelly: And are you terrified because you're standing up in front of professional advocates who will critique? Or is there another reason?

Kathryn Stone OBE: There's a bit of that, but I also want to do the very best I can for the Bar Standards Board. You know, it's been a huge part of my life for the past seven years and I want to give the very best account possible to all those external stakeholders. So representing the organisation and getting that right is what's giving me a bit of anxiety, but I'm sure I'll get over it.

Orlagh Kelly: I'm sure you'll be fine. And so seven years at the Bar Standards Board, the last three years of course have been in the role of Chair. What has that journey looked like for you?

Kathryn Stone OBE: It's really interesting that you asked that, Orlagh. I've been reflecting on my motivation for applying to be the chair of the Bar Standards Board in 2022. And I've asked myself a number of times over the past three years, why did I apply for this job? And I guess there's a whole kind of range of things that I think supported my motivation. I have absolute respect for the barrister profession and the individuals within the barrister profession are people of enormous intellectual capability and very real kind of moral strength. And as I leave, that respect for the barrister profession has actually been enhanced. So that's part of the journey. But I've also become aware of some of the challenges that are still there at the Bar and thinking about those and how we address those as a regulator and how we address those as the broader ecosystem, if you like, of the barrister profession. you hopefully we'll get a chance to chat through some of that.

Orlagh Kelly: And so thinking about the strengths of the Bar and it's wonderful to hear that after seven years working much more closely with the profession that your respect has been enhanced, that's very positive to hear. What would you say the strengths of the Bar of England and Wales are?

Kathryn Stone OBE: Well, again, it's that kind of intellectual rigour. It's the absolute commitment to ethical practice. It's the independence of the Bar as embodied, if you like, by the Cab Rank Rule. And those are the reasons why. There are other reasons too, but those are the reasons why people come from all over the world to have their cases litigated in London and why the Bar of England and Wales is called upon to represent people across the world in different jurisdictions. You know, the Cab Rank Rule is an absolutely fundamental principle of the barrister profession and that commitment to independence and representing whoever has an arguable case.

Orlagh Kelly: And it would certainly be, I think we've touched on this before, that there's a relatively unique position where the Bar invests a lot of personal time and effort in supporting the junior members coming through and supporting pupillages and essentially supporting the future of its own profession. Is that something that you have found?

Kathryn Stone OBE: Well, I've had the opportunity to observe a whole range of different training courses, including some really excellent training in advocacy for barristers. And it is extraordinary the amount of time that experienced barristers and judges give up in order to train more junior members of the profession or to go into schools and to colleges to promote the Bar as a really important career choice and how to go about becoming a barrister. So that's an incredible thing that the profession of the Bar gives back to society and gives back to young people and it really does make a difference.

Orlagh Kelly: Yeah, and so I mean I think the strengths and the advantages of the Bar are many. You must have obviously observed some challenges or have thoughts on what some of the challenges for the Bar might be going forward.

Kathryn Stone OBE: Yes, I have. And we're all aware that Baroness Harman is currently undertaking a review of the prevalence of bullying, harassment and sexual misconduct at the Bar. And she's going to be reporting later in the year and making recommendations for what can be done to change that. And those close relationships that define the Bar and pupillage and access to the Bar are the same close relationships that might give rise to an abuse of power and authority and lead to incidents of bullying, harassment and sexual misconduct. you know, we know at the Bar Standards Board and I know from my previous work in this area at the House of Commons and elsewhere that simply changing the enforcement process isn't going to change the incidence of bullying, harassment and sexual misconduct. It's a cultural problem and we need to look at the roots of these issues and make sure that people have trust and confidence in a process that enables them to bring their cases forward and have them listened to and addressed properly and fairly.

Orlagh Kelly: I know that there has been some media focus on that already. Are you in any position to comment on that?

Kathryn Stone OBE: Yeah, there was a Channel 4 news report about a high profile barrister and about the experiences of the witnesses who came forward. It was clear to me and to my colleagues at the Bar Standards Board that we had not served those witnesses well. So the Bar Standards Board issued an apology to those witnesses and said that we will learn from their experience and we will do better.

And one of the things that we've done immediately is gone out to procure and fast track the procurement of a victim and witness support service so that we get the balance right between processes and being focused on a fair and thorough process and support for the individuals who bring forward complaints. We have to build trust and confidence in a process and at the same time ensure individuals, whether they be the people who are bringing forward the complaints or the barristers who are the subject of the complaints, are properly supported and have a fair and proper process in hearing.

Orlagh Kelly: And so in terms of the Bar Standards Board generally as one of the legal regulators obviously overseen by the Legal Services Board, it certainly would appear over the past maybe year 18 months particularly there has been quite a bit of holding the feet to the fire and some criticism would be fair to say that has come out. What's your response to the kind of criticism that can be levied at the Bar Standards Board and has been in recent times?

Kathryn Stone OBE: Well, I would be the first to say that our performance has been mixed and we implemented a programme of reform of modernising our delivery programme and we're a very, very good way through that. We commissioned a review of our services and our processes. We commissioned that because we knew we had to do it differently to be more efficient, to be more effective. We've done that. We're a good way through that reform programme now. There are some very real, very tangible improvements. I have to say that as I leave with my respect for the barrister profession intact, I can't, I'm afraid, the same for the system of oversight regulation. And I think there are some fairly fundamental flaws in that. I have, of course, raised this with the Legal Services Board themselves. It would be disrespectful not to do that.

I am respectful of our oversight regulator in a way that I would expect people that we regulate to be respectful of us. And I've shared my disappointment at their apparent lack of recognition of the improvements that we've made with them. And I hope that we can continue to try to persuade our oversight regulator that we have indeed made a transformational change to the organisation. We have indeed made significant improvements to the performance of our organisation. And I would caution our oversight regulator and other observers from looking at everything through the prism of speed. So speed for me isn't the only indicator of good performance. I actually don't think it's the most important indicator of good.

We have to make sure that the decisions that we arrive at, particularly when we're investigating allegations of bullying, harassment and sexual misconduct, are arrived at properly and fairly and the decisions are evidence-based, they're substantiated and they give fair opportunities to all parties to be represented and to have their voices heard. Independent audits of our decisions show that our decisions are of high quality, that's what matters. And I think the barrister profession would be the first to complain and they'd be right to do so if our decisions weren't of high quality and weren't fair or properly arrived at. So speed is only one element and we now hold the executive team of the Bar Standards Board to account by a number of different variables including productivity. including quality and timeliness. you know, a range of different factors, not just how fast we can look into a matter and conclude it, because all that will happen then is we'll have to do it all over again because the decision will be challenged, it won't be the right decision, it won't be a fair decision, and we will leave people who bring forward complaints in a worse position than they were before.

Orlagh Kelly: And of course the barristers who are potentially subject to the complaints also feel the stress and I'm assuming that would be where the need for speed would come where the person who's being investigated would obviously like the investigation of as quickly as possible but of course would need the right outcome as well.

Kathryn Stone OBE: that's not always the case. You know, there is a view that people want cases to be done and dusted, cases where allegations, particularly of bullying, harassment and sexual misconduct are made, to be done and dusted as quickly as possible. And of course, we all want things to be expedient, we want them to be effective. We have to think really carefully about... the rights and the wellbeing of the people who bring the complaints forward and also the rights and the wellbeing of those people who are subject to complaints. If we were to impose, in my view, artificial time scales on people, timeframes, the first thing would happen is that they wouldn't be met. Because, for example, a barrister might say, well, I need more time than 28 days to go and get advice about that.

Or a complainant might say, well, actually, I'm not quite ready to take that next step yet. I just need more time to think about. I need to find support. I need to go and take advice. I need to think about what that means for me. So we have to be very, very careful not to confuse or conflate the quality of the investigation with the speed at which the investigation is carried out. And one of the things that I've been really clear with the team about is that we must never sacrifice quality for speed. And I know that there's a frustrating balance to be struck, but we have to arrive at an outcome that's fair and right for all the parties.

Orlagh Kelly: And so...thinking about the work of the Bar Standards Board and the last time that you and I sat here discussing it you were mid consultation for some potential change that might happen to the equality rules that the Bar Standards Board would potentially create a positive, if I am to, remember this correctly, a positive obligation on barristers to promote equality, if I'm correct there. And so, since we spoke I appreciate that that has come to an end. Can you tell us a little bit about the responses during the consultation from the Bar and stakeholders and then the outcome.

Kathryn Stone OBE: I can indeed, yeah. And thank you for asking, Orlagh because that equality rules consultation drew in the most responses that the Bar Standards Board has ever had to a consultation. I think we received over a thousand responses. Many, many, of those responses were incredibly carefully considered, very carefully argued with some really persuasive evidence and as you would expect, from the barrister profession. There were some that were verging on offensive, but that's how people wanted to respond. Some of those responses were really disappointing. But I think I said when I was here last that it is and it was a genuine consultation. Every member of the board, of the Bar Standards Board, read every response to the consultation.

and we had a very careful debate, a very careful discussion around our board table. And we concluded that there should be no change to Core Duty 8. There should be no change. And we were persuaded by the barrister profession's view that there didn't need to be regulation in order for them to promote equality, diversity and inclusion across the Bar. And we... are confident that the Bar will now go ahead and do that with support, with advice, with guidance. We will do that with the barrister profession, not to them. And I think it's really important that the Bar understands that the Bar Standards Board was genuinely interested in their views, genuinely listened and was informed by, not directed by the responses that came in. And I just hope that they will see that as a genuine consultation with a positive outcome.

Orlagh Kelly: Absolutely and I'm sure it will give a lot of trust and confidence in the profession that they can collaborate and communicate with the Bar Standards Board and be listened to.

Kathryn Stone OBE: I hope so. I hope so. And one of my challenges in my speech will be that's what you told us you were going to do. So make it happen.

Orlagh Kelly: Is there a way that you can see that the regulator could actually work with the profession for the greater good?

Kathryn Stone OBE: So the job of the regulator is to apply the regulatory objectives as set out in the Legal Services Act in the public interest. So we regulate in the public interest. And what that doesn't mean is that we set ourselves aloof and distant from the profession. It means that where we can and do agree that there are things that we can work on together to promote the public interest, then we really should do that.

For example, when it comes to thinking about AI, and AI is everywhere at the moment, there's a really, really interesting debate going on in the legal press. we get a summary of the legal press every Friday. And every Friday, there are stories for and stories against the use of AI in the legal profession. We've recently completed a piece of research about tech at the Bar.

And one of the things that's been really positive is that the Bar Council and the Bar Standards Board are working together to draw up advice and guidance about how barristers can use AI to support the work that they do. Now, will AI ever take the place of barristers professional judgments? Maybe not. But will it take out the drudgery of chronologies and case files and timelines and all the rest of it?

Certainly. One really interesting thing that I've been involved with, slightly off from the Bar standards board, is the use of one particular police force is using AI to detect the use of child sexual abuse material on the dark web. And It is absolutely extraordinary the way that AI has been used by the police. They do that so we don't even have to think about it. But it's AI that's opened the doors and enabled them to detect so many more criminals than they ever would have been able to do before. I've also been talking recently to a friend who's a medical professional and AI has been used to design proteins, which has cut years off research. So AI and the change and the challenge that it presents is coming to the legal profession. And if it's something that we can all get behind to promote an evolution rather than a revolution, I think that has to be not only in the public interest, but in the interests of the barrister profession.

Orlagh Kelly: And so what does the future look like after you finish your term as chair of the Bar Standards Board?

Kathryn Stone OBE: I'm actually very sorry to be leaving the Bar Standards Board. I've learned a huge amount and met some extraordinarily inspirational people and I've learned a lot from them. I'm off, as you know, to be one of His Majesty's Inspectors of Constabulary, Fire and Rescue Services. It's quite a mouthful, but that's what I'm going to be.

Orlagh Kelly: what will that mean, what will you be doing?

Kathryn Stone OBE: Well, so I'm, it's not a regulator. It's interesting. It's not a regulator. It's an inspectorate. There's a very clear difference. And my force, my police forces and my fire services are in Wales and the Southwest. So I've got a new patch to get used to. It's a really big geographical area. So I think I'll be spending most of the next five years on the M5.

But I'm so excited to be joining the organisation. And one of the things that I think is clear is that I really believe that being a regulator, being an inspector, you can be respectful of the profession that you are regulating and inspecting without being in its pocket. And I'm going to take the independence that I think I've brought to this role across to HMICFRS and look forward to working with the teams. I've met some of the police officers in the different forces. I've met some fire chiefs and I'm really excited now to start that job full time on the 1st of September. I'm just treading water a bit at the moment by, you know, attending meetings and getting briefings. It's a very, very different world, but I'm excited to be thinking about being part of it.

Orlagh Kelly: Well congratulations, it's a wonderful appointment and congratulations on seven very successful years of the Bar Standards Board.

Kathryn Stone OBE: Thank you very much, Orlagh. Thank you.