Orlagh Kelly: Welcome, Kathryn Stone OBE, to the Get Briefed podcast again. Thank you very much for joining. I know you've got a busy week. You have a wonderful event tomorrow night at Inner Temple, where you are going to address the Bar and all of the key stakeholders with your farewell speech.

Kathryn Stone OBE: I am indeed — and of course I'm supposed to say I'm really excited about it rather than say I'm terrified. Somewhere between the two is the truth.

Orlagh Kelly: And are you terrified because you're standing up in front of professional advocates who will critique? Or is there another reason?

Kathryn Stone OBE: There's a bit of that. But I also want to do the very best I can for the Bar Standards Board. It's been a huge part of my life for the past seven years and I want to give the very best account possible to all those external stakeholders. Representing the organisation and getting that right is what's giving me a bit of anxiety, but I'm sure I'll get over it.

Orlagh Kelly: I'm sure you'll be fine. Seven years at the Bar Standards Board, the last three years as Chair. What has that journey looked like for you?

Kathryn Stone OBE: It's interesting that you asked that. I've been reflecting on my motivation for applying to be Chair in 2022. I have absolute respect for the barrister profession. The individuals within it are people of enormous intellectual capability and very real moral strength. And as I leave, that respect has actually been enhanced. But I've also become aware of some of the challenges that are still there at the Bar, and thinking about how we address those as a regulator and as the broader ecosystem of the barrister profession.

Orlagh Kelly: Thinking about the strengths of the Bar — what would you say the strengths of the Bar of England and Wales are?

Kathryn Stone OBE: That intellectual rigour. The absolute commitment to ethical practice. The independence of the Bar as embodied by the Cab Rank rule. Those are the reasons why people come from all over the world to have their cases litigated in London and why the Bar of England and Wales is called upon to represent people across the world in different jurisdictions. The Cab Rank rule is an absolutely fundamental principle of the barrister profession — that commitment to independence and to representing whoever has an arguable case.

Orlagh Kelly: And there's a relatively unique position where the Bar invests a lot of personal time and effort in supporting junior members coming through and supporting pupillages. Is that something you've found?

Kathryn Stone OBE: I've had the opportunity to observe a whole range of different training courses, including some really excellent advocacy training. It is extraordinary the amount of time that experienced barristers and judges give up in order to train more junior members of the profession, or to go into schools and colleges to promote the Bar as a career. That is an incredible thing that the profession gives back to society and to young people, and it really does make a difference.

Orlagh Kelly: The strengths and advantages of the Bar are many. You must have observed some challenges, or have thoughts on what some of the challenges might be going forward.

Kathryn Stone OBE: Yes. We are all aware that Baroness Harman is currently undertaking a review of the prevalence of bullying, harassment, and sexual misconduct at the Bar. She is going to be reporting later in the year and making recommendations. Those close relationships that define the Bar and pupillage and access to the Bar are the same close relationships that might give rise to an abuse of power and authority and lead to incidents of bullying, harassment, and sexual misconduct. We know at the Bar Standards Board — and I know from my previous work in this area at the House of Commons and elsewhere — that simply changing the enforcement process isn't going to change the incidence of bullying, harassment, and sexual misconduct. It's a cultural problem. We need to look at the roots of these issues and make sure that people have trust and confidence in a process that enables them to bring their cases forward and have them listened to and addressed properly and fairly.

Orlagh Kelly: I know there has been some media focus on that already. Are you in any position to comment?

Kathryn Stone OBE: There was a Channel 4 News report about a high-profile barrister and about the experiences of the witnesses who came forward. It was clear to me and to my colleagues at the Bar Standards Board that we had not served those witnesses well. So the Bar Standards Board issued an apology to those witnesses and said that we will learn from their experience and we will do better. One of the things we have done immediately is procure and fast-track a victim and witness support service — so that we get the balance right between processes, being focused on a fair and thorough process, and support for the individuals who bring forward complaints. We have to build trust and confidence in a process while at the same time ensuring individuals — whether the people bringing forward the complaints or the barristers who are the subject of them — are properly supported and have a fair hearing.

Orlagh Kelly: In terms of the Bar Standards Board generally, as one of the legal regulators overseen by the Legal Services Board, there has been quite a bit of criticism over the past year or eighteen months. What's your response to the criticism that has been levied at the BSB?

Kathryn Stone OBE: I would be the first to say that our performance has been mixed. We implemented a programme of reform, modernising our delivery, and we are a very good way through that. We commissioned a review of our services and processes — because we knew we had to do it differently, to be more efficient and more effective. We have done that. There are some very real, very tangible improvements. I have to say that as I leave with my respect for the barrister profession enhanced, I cannot say the same for the system of oversight regulation. I think there are some fairly fundamental flaws in it. I have, of course, raised this with the Legal Services Board themselves. I am respectful of our oversight regulator in the way I would expect the people we regulate to be respectful of us. And I have shared my disappointment at their apparent lack of recognition of the improvements we have made.

I would caution our oversight regulator and other observers from looking at everything through the prism of speed. Speed is not the only indicator of good performance. I don't think it is the most important one. We have to make sure that the decisions we arrive at — particularly when investigating allegations of bullying, harassment, and sexual misconduct — are arrived at properly and fairly. They must be evidence-based, substantiated, and give fair opportunities to all parties to be represented and to have their voices heard. Independent audits of our decisions show that those decisions are of high quality. That is what matters. The barrister profession would be the first to complain — and rightly so — if our decisions weren't of high quality or weren't properly arrived at.

Orlagh Kelly: And of course the barristers who are subject to complaints also feel the stress — I'm assuming that is where the pressure for speed comes from.

Kathryn Stone OBE: That's not always the case. There is a view that people want cases involving allegations of bullying, harassment, and sexual misconduct to be done and dusted as quickly as possible. But we have to think very carefully about the rights and wellbeing of the people who bring complaints forward and also those who are subject to them. If we were to impose artificial timeframes, the first thing that would happen is that they wouldn't be met. A barrister might say they need more than 28 days to get advice. A complainant might say they're not quite ready to take the next step yet — they need time to think, to find support, to understand what it means for them. We must never confuse the quality of the investigation with the speed at which it is carried out. We must never sacrifice quality for speed. And I know that's a frustrating balance to strike, but we have to arrive at an outcome that's fair and right for all parties.

Orlagh Kelly: The last time you and I sat here, you were mid-consultation on some potential changes to the equality rules — a positive obligation, if I remember correctly, on barristers to promote equality. Can you tell us about the responses during the consultation and the outcome?

Kathryn Stone OBE: That equality rules consultation drew in the most responses the Bar Standards Board has ever had to any consultation — over a thousand. Many of those responses were incredibly carefully considered, very carefully argued, with some really persuasive evidence, as you would expect from the barrister profession. There were some that were verging on offensive. But I said when I was here last that it was a genuine consultation. Every member of the board read every response. We had a very careful discussion around our board table. And we concluded that there should be no change to Core Duty 8. We were persuaded by the barrister profession's view that regulation was not needed for them to promote equality, diversity, and inclusion across the Bar. We are confident that the Bar will now go ahead and do that — with support, with advice, with guidance. We will do that with the barrister profession, not to them. And I think it's really important that the Bar understands that the Bar Standards Board was genuinely interested in their views, genuinely listened, and was informed by — not directed by — the responses that came in.

Orlagh Kelly: Absolutely. And I'm sure it will give the profession trust and confidence that they can collaborate and communicate with the Bar Standards Board and be listened to.

Kathryn Stone OBE: I hope so. And one of my challenges in my speech will be: that's what you told us you were going to do. So make it happen.

Orlagh Kelly: Is there a way the regulator can work with the profession for the greater good?

Kathryn Stone OBE: The job of the regulator is to apply the regulatory objectives as set out in the Legal Services Act, in the public interest. What that doesn't mean is that we set ourselves aloof and distant from the profession. It means that where we can agree there are things we can work on together to promote the public interest, we really should do that. On AI, for example — and AI is everywhere at the moment — the Bar Council and the Bar Standards Board are working together to draw up advice and guidance about how barristers can use AI to support the work that they do. Will AI ever take the place of barristers' professional judgment? Maybe not. But will it take out the drudgery of chronologies and case files and timelines? Certainly.

One really interesting thing I've been involved with — slightly away from the BSB — is a particular police force using AI to detect the use of child sexual abuse material on the dark web. The way AI has been used by the police there is absolutely extraordinary. And I've also been talking recently with a friend who is a medical professional, where AI has been used to design proteins and has cut years off research. The change and challenge that AI presents is coming to the legal profession. If it's something we can all get behind to promote an evolution rather than a revolution, I think that has to be not only in the public interest but in the interests of the barrister profession.

Orlagh Kelly: And what does the future look like after you finish your term as Chair?

Kathryn Stone OBE: I'm actually very sorry to be leaving the Bar Standards Board. I've learned a huge amount and met some extraordinarily inspirational people. I'm going to be one of His Majesty's Inspectors of Constabulary, Fire and Rescue Services. It's quite a mouthful, but that's what I'm going to be. My police forces and fire services are in Wales and the South West — a very big geographical area. I think I'll be spending most of the next five years on the M5.

I'm so excited to be joining the organisation. One of the things that I think is clear is that I really believe that being a regulator or an inspector, you can be respectful of the profession you are regulating and inspecting without being in its pocket. I'm going to take the independence I think I've brought to this role across to HMICFRS. I've met some of the police officers in the different forces and some fire chiefs, and I'm really excited to start that job full time on the 1st of September.

Orlagh Kelly: Well, congratulations — it's a wonderful appointment. And congratulations on seven very successful years at the Bar Standards Board.

Kathryn Stone OBE: Thank you very much, Orlagh. Thank you.