Orlagh Kelly: Welcome back to the Get Briefed podcast. Today I'm joined by Natalie Connor, who's a barrister-turned tech entrepreneur with a new business in the wellness space. Natalie practised at the bar for more than eight years before she transitioned into general counsel and director roles in the tech industry. Natalie, welcome to the Get Briefed podcast.

Natalie Connor: Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Orlagh Kelly: You're welcome. So I'm always interested to hear from someone who worked super hard to be a barrister, did that successfully and decided then to move on. So could you tell me just a little bit about your background, how you got to the bar and that type of thing?

Natalie Connor: Yeah, sure. I'm still probably in the minority of people who can say this. I was non-privately educated and non-Oxbridge educated. And I came from, you know, relatively humble beginnings. I didn't, you know, know anybody in the law. I didn't have any kind of help into the law. But I studied law undergrad at Nottingham University and ended up doing very well and wanted to — I felt like if I was going to go into law, then I wanted to kind of do it properly. And to me, that meant becoming a barrister and getting to do the advocacy and, you know, arguing cases, which I guess was always my favourite part, at least to begin with. And so I did my BPTC training at the College of Law in London, and then was really fortunate to secure pupillage kind of straight away at 7 KBW, which is quite a well-known commercial set of chambers, focusing mainly on kind of shipping and insurance law. I did pupillage there, I was offered tenancy there and stayed there for a few years. And then quite unconventionally made a lateral move into 11 KBW. And that was essentially because I wanted to do more advocacy. So at Seven, I was doing mostly big led cases and I wanted to do more of my own stuff.

So at 11, I was able to do a big mix of kind of employment, data privacy, commercial, some public work, which I enjoyed a lot more. But yeah, as you know, it didn't last. Yeah.

Orlagh Kelly: And so you spent eight years practising now, is that correct?

Natalie Connor: Yes. Around eight years.

Orlagh Kelly: That's a long time to invest — on top of your education — to invest in that job role or profession. What were the driving factors for you during that, I guess, during that period of being successful in the profession, to think about other avenues?

Natalie Connor: Do you mean what kind of kept me in it for as long as I was in it?

Orlagh Kelly: And then what led you to move on?

Natalie Connor: Yeah, I mean — and I've said this before, I speak quite a lot about my journey, you know, into the bar and out of the bar. And I've always said that there were a lot of positives about life at the bar, which I stand by to this day. You know, the things that kept me in it were: the variety of work was great. And I've always been someone who takes quite a portfolio approach to my work and to everything I do. So that aspect of, you know, variety really appealed. I was lucky to practise at sets of chambers where I could make very good money. So that was obviously a factor as well. The kind of general autonomy and independence, you know, of being able to forge your own path and create your own niche within different sectors and choose — up to a point — which cases you wanted to do and when you could take time off. So, lots of benefits to being self-employed in that context. And just the challenge, the intellectual challenge of difficult black letter law and having the buck stops with you, both in terms of trials and important advice to solicitors' clients. So, lots of reasons to stay in it. But fundamentally for me, I found that I felt like I'd been left quite high and dry even at the end of a successful case. I got so into my client's sector and into their business in order to prosecute or defend a claim in the commercial sphere. And even if we won that case, the best case scenario after that is I never see that client again. I've done that job for them and I never see them again. And I don't get to see what impact that case may have had on their wider business. And even with a successful case in commercial law, you're not really winning even if you win, because you've probably successfully destroyed a commercial relationship. So I actually found towards the end of my time at the bar that I preferred the work that I did where I got to advise clients on how to avoid litigation rather than actually engaging in it. And then also, I guess, on a more personal level, I just didn't really like the fact that I was becoming a much more abrasive person in my personal life as well. I think, you know, to be successful at the bar, you need to really lean into the confrontational aspects. And I was taking that home with me and finding it quite difficult to separate, you know, work-related debate from, you know, ordinary conversations, I guess, with people I cared about. And I just didn't really like that. So, yeah.

I decided to transition into tech companies at that point.

Orlagh Kelly: Very good. And so one of the things that occurs to me — and I recall conversations when I was in practice at the bar, sitting having coffee. And as we got further into our careers at the bar, I know we as barristers were wondering: did we have any skills that would transfer outside of the bar? Or was it the fact that we worked in this very focused industry where advocacy, confrontation, negotiation, I guess, and learning really deeply the case law and the legislation — did that transfer anywhere? Or indeed were we working ourselves — the longer we were at the bar — into a position of being unemployable elsewhere? And so from your experience of leaving it in around that eight-year period, did you have transferable skills, and which transferable skills did you find worked for you?

Natalie Connor: Yeah, it's a really good question. I mean, obviously, you know, I haven't really had a need to consult the detailed case law since leaving the bar. So all of that kind of work and knowledge hasn't really been that transferable. But there's been loads of transferable stuff in terms of softer skills and kind of general, you know, work experience, I guess. You know, everything from — I mean, barristers are interrogating, you know, complicated fact patterns day in and day out, you know, having to be very efficient about that, having to assimilate information really quickly, problem solving — you know, that's essentially what we're doing all day long. And that translates really well into, you know, any number of business areas really. And, you know, having, I guess, the self-confidence and self-assuredness to be able to hold your own in a courtroom, I think translates quite well into, you know, what I went on to do, which was to be a general counsel in a scale-up environment where again, you know, if you're in a senior role, you need to be able to hold your own with other stakeholders, maybe even in a board setting, be able to kind of articulate yourself well. You know, I did a lot of opinions and advisory notes when I was at the bar and that translates very well into how I present information as a GC, you know, to other stakeholders in order to get buy-in on certain decisions.

So I think there's loads of transferable stuff actually. Yeah, I'm a big believer in that.

Orlagh Kelly: You mentioned, I think, your persuasive skills, critical thinking, your ability to persuade people to do whatever it is that you want them to do. And I also think sort of challenging — feeling free to challenge — which is something that you inevitably have to do from the very first day at the bar in some capacity, where you don't agree with the person on the other side, you're disagreeing with them ultimately. And then bringing that into a business setting can be very useful. I would agree.

Natalie Connor: Absolutely. Yeah. One of my very first CEOs that I worked for in tech said that he was just really kind of astonished by my level of — he called it intellectual honesty — that he found really refreshing and really helpful. Yeah. Because you're able to go in and say what you think, but in a measured way and in a way that kind of presents the alternatives and the alternative arguments, because that's how you're used to presenting information. And it's evidence-backed, and a lot of people don't do that. You know, I noticed that when I'm in board meetings and other stakeholders are bringing something to the table and they're just not used to presenting information in that way and it's just less clear and less compelling.

Orlagh Kelly: Okay. So our training and our experience brings an advantage then. And then anyone — you know, I'm always conscious of the audience — anyone listening to this who's at the bar but might potentially think about moving on can feel reassured that the skills that they've developed over their career at the bar will be not just useful, but potentially put them in a place where they've got a compelling story about why they could bring a lot of value into, for example, a board of directors or another business, certainly from what you say.

Natalie Connor: Absolutely, I think it's just about presenting the information in the right way and if you've got a level of conviction about going into something else, you'll know why you're doing that and that should translate, I think, in a really authentic and compelling way if that's how you really feel. You just find a way to present the information in a way that resonates.

Orlagh Kelly: And so tell me a little bit more about the next stage of your journey. Then you went in as GC into a tech business. What was that like?

Natalie Connor: Yeah, so I didn't really have a plan other than I knew I didn't want to be a barrister anymore. I didn't really want to leave the law behind fully because I didn't really know what was next. So I felt like a safe bet would be to kind of catapult myself into disruptive tech. And I didn't really have any connections to tech prior to that. But the way my reasoning went was, you know, all of those aspects of my working life that I described earlier that I really enjoyed about the bar — you know, autonomy, relative freedom, ability to, yeah, say what I think, and to be kind of self-sufficient and not really that answerable to other people — I wanted to kind of translate that into an employed role as much as I possibly could. And the thought process I went through was: disruptive tech sounds like a great shout. They don't really know what they're doing. They'll be so grateful to have me. I'll be able to kind of go in, you know, at a fairly senior level straight out of the gate rather than, you know, joining a big corporate. The last thing I wanted to do essentially was go and join a huge corporate and be one of like a hundred lawyers and just get lost in a big machine. I just don't think my ego could really cope with that thought. So I thought I'll go into, you know, a small tech company, small but growing. I'll be able to kind of make my mark and build my team.

And that honestly turned out to be exactly right. Those instincts were exactly right. That was exactly the opportunity that tech presented me with. So yeah, I joined a property technology startup, which was initially very successful and was backed by some huge venture capital funds. But then COVID struck not long after that transition. So that ended up being a bit of a baptism of fire for me because a big part of my role ended up being helping that company navigate furlough and mass redundancy. And so I was drawing on a lot of my employment law knowledge, but in obviously a different context — from kind of the inside rather than, you know, from a litigation perspective. And then after I was there for a couple of years, really enjoyed it. The company ended up downsizing quite a bit and albeit that I could have stayed, I was kind of ready for the next challenge. So I ended up joining a much bigger FinTech for a while, and from there ended up in my last FinTech where I stepped up as a director of the business kind of very early on when a former co-founder kind of left early doors. And then that business was acquired last year by Crowdcube, the kind of UK and European leader in crowdfunding. So it's been a bit of a crazy journey — a few different sectors, a few different roles, but always kind of in the ballpark of head of legal, general counsel, chief legal officer, basically.

Orlagh Kelly: Very good. And what does your day to day look like currently?

Natalie Connor: No two days are the same — very similar to the bar in that sense, really, you know. I'll be — I mean, today, you know, I'm looking at some options scheme-related stuff. I'm in some meetings with, you know, other stakeholders in the business to discuss developments in the product and what the legal implications are. I'm writing up some changes to some of our internal regulatory and compliance policies. Like, it really is so varied. It's so varied — very little litigation though, I'm pleased to say.

Orlagh Kelly: And so one of the things that I know that you're really quite passionate about is wellness. And you have a sort of wellness journey that runs throughout all of your career really. Would that be fair to say in terms of following that journey? Can you tell us a bit about that? Where that interest in wellness came from?

Natalie Connor: Yeah, so yeah, I mean, I now — alongside my work in tech — have established a wellness business that is kind of grounded in longevity science really more than anything else. And we run various experiences and retreats for busy professionals — you know, entrepreneurs, execs, senior lawyers — helping them to kind of live better for longer. And we have three pillars, which are movement, functional medicine and nutrition, and then mindfulness. And the way I ended up in those shoes and kind of starting that business was born out of my own personal health journey. So yeah, I mean, I'm somebody who throughout my life had suffered with various physical health issues — female health issues, the ones that are sort of so often kind of marginalised by modern Western medicine. You know, digestive issues, hormonal issues, skin issues, that were really quite debilitating at times and things that my GP was just kind of never able to help me with. The GP would just compartmentalise everything and send me off with some, you know, course of antibiotics that was probably making things far worse than better. And that was deeply frustrating. And that led me to kind of discover the world of functional medicine, which essentially means kind of root cause, non-pharmaceutical approaches to handling symptoms — you know, tackling the root cause of an issue rather than the symptom that's presenting. And I went on a journey with an incredible practitioner called Lara Rickard, who is a kind of holistic dietitian, and was able to really heal most of these issues, honestly, from kind of the inside out. And at the same time, you know, at the bar and before and after, I'm somebody who's, you know, had quite a sedentary work life in terms of being sat at a desk all day and suffered with the same niggly back and postural issues that I think most of us suffer with. And that in turn led me to discover, you know, the benefits of kind of movement mechanics and in particular resistance training for women in particular, and you know, the need to bulletproof your body against ageing essentially. And then on the mindfulness side, yeah, I mean — a career at the bar is one of the most stressful careers out there really in so many ways. You know, it can be quite isolating. We're working on exceptionally busy cases. We don't necessarily have a whole lot of support around us. And I came very, very close to burning out on numerous occasions and didn't really know how to kind of handle my stress. And how to kind of process it. Yeah, over the years I've also developed a very varied mindfulness practice. And along the way, basically, I've got a very curious mind, so I'm kind of constantly reading about a lot of this stuff. And I managed to cross paths with and work with some incredible practitioners in each of these spaces and a variety of disciplines. And they all — it's no exaggeration to say — they all changed my life completely, completely transformed my life.

Orlagh Kelly: Can you give us an example of that? Is there anything that comes to mind?

Natalie Connor: Yeah, I mean, you know, on the movement side, I'm somebody who, I think, quite classically, considered myself fit, you know — I did some gym classes, I did some spinning, I did some yoga. But I was constantly in pain, I was constantly dealing with niggly back issues. I actually tore a disc in my spine doing kind of too much yoga. No osteos or chiros or physios could really help me with that. I saw everyone. And then I found my personal trainer Scott, who now works with me on our retreats. And within a month of, you know, doing some movement assessments with him and lifting weights functionally in a way that was designed for my body, I was out of pain. And now, you know, I still train with him. He also now trains the Chelsea FC women's team. He's, you know, he's exceptionally good at what he does, but he takes a really tailored approach to movement. And, you know, that's now what we espouse within Elevate, within my company — you know, whenever we are dealing with the movement side of things, we're always encouraging people to look at their own bodies and what their own body's needs are. So yeah, that's one example. And then obviously all the work with Lara on the, you know, on the functional medicine stuff is what's enabled me to heal from, you know, all manner of digestive issues and hormonal issues, autoimmune issues, things that I honestly thought I'd have to live with my whole life. So it's been amazing. It's been like night and day.

Orlagh Kelly: That's fascinating. And so if you were looking back now and thinking about your life at the bar — first of all the sedentary piece with the desk all of the time, where you'll have been prepping cases, and then in the event that you were in litigation going to court and the busyness that exists there, the stress that runs through all of that — would you have any advice for your former self or anyone listening who continues to live that life right now?

Natalie Connor: Yeah, 100%. I mean, there's so many components to this, right? I think you need to take as holistic an approach to wellbeing as you can. But I think that the main components are firstly, as I say, movement — you know, making sure you incorporate some movement into your day-to-day life, you know, even if you're having a busy day in chambers or in court, trying to carve out some time to essentially counter-stretch your body. You know, we're constantly in this kind of kyphosis hunched posture, either over our desks or even in court, you know, over our notes. And so finding a way to kind of counter-stretch and subject your body to some level of resistance is essential and I wish I'd done more of it. I would have been, you know, far more comfortable had I just incorporated a little bit of that into my life instead of smashing, you know, a spin class and essentially exacerbating those issues. And then on the mindfulness side, you know, I'm — and I think a lot of barristers are this way, you know, I'm very type A, I'm very in my masculine energy, I have a very scientific mind. I was somebody who thought there is no way that meditation is going to work for me, or breathwork is going to work for me, you know. I'm somebody who thought, I either just need to have a holiday or I need to get a pill, you know, to sort of fix an issue that I'm experiencing either physically or mentally. And actually, yeah, discovering the transformative power of meditating and breathwork and the various practices that I now kind of put around that — you know, everything from cold water immersion to sound baths to sound therapy, you know, bits and bobs that I never tried earlier in my career — and just deeply wish I had. Because it would have made a huge difference, I think, to bringing down my stress response and calming the nervous system. And of course, chronic stress plays such a part in other physical health issues as well. So I think just on the whole, I would have been so much better off.

Orlagh Kelly: And of course, some of the things that you're talking about may trigger people to think it's a bit woo-woo or a bit soft. We've got real things to be getting on with. What would you say to them? Again, you know, thinking that that might have been you previously.

Natalie Connor: Yeah, I would say I think a lot of it, you know, is about how you present the information. So with Elevate, I'm very keen to appeal to people like me. So the way I do it is I lead with the science, you know — this isn't just some kind of woo-woo concept that some yogi in the mountains in India has kind of, you know, thought up. This is stuff that's deeply, deeply grounded in longevity science. You know, breathwork is absolutely 100% proven to lower your stress response, and the amount of cortisol and adrenaline in your body is having a detrimental impact on your other systems. All of that is just completely irrefutable. So I kind of lead with that so that people know why they're doing something. Because yeah, if somebody just comes to me and says, you should do this, it'll make you feel better — my brain says, well, why? Explain to me what benefit this is going to have and why in a context that resonates.

So that's, I think, the way to go about it, particularly with barristers.

Orlagh Kelly: And I've been reading up on some of the retreats that you offer, and they sound absolutely amazing. I would definitely suggest anyone listening goes and has a look at your website. We'll include some of that information underneath the recorded podcast. But as someone who probably is a little bit like yourself previously and has a lot on and a young family where those type of things feel like a luxury as opposed to an essential, it's certainly interesting now in the kind of 2024 that we're living in, in the post-COVID world, where people are talking about health and wellbeing in a much more informative manner. I would say my interest has peaked more than it has been, but you're correct — it's understanding the science and knowing that you're genuinely investing time as opposed to wasting time, because I guess time is what most barristers don't have a lot of. And it's just trying to prioritise how to get through.

Natalie Connor: Yeah, exactly. It's about making it accessible and workable. You know, I'm not here telling people you need to spend two hours a day meditating because that's just completely unrealistic. You know, me personally, I spend 10 minutes a day and I am a big believer in the notion that anyone, no matter how busy you are, can find 10 minutes — particularly, you know, first thing in the morning before you get out of bed. That's when I meditate. And that, you know, has a noticeable impact on, you know, my clarity of thought and how I show up for the day ahead. A demonstrable impact. So yeah, I think it's all about making it accessible and, you know, conveying the benefits — the irrefutable scientific benefits of these things.

Orlagh Kelly: Absolutely. And you've kindly offered to speak at our upcoming leadership and wellness conference that we're having in April. And I know that you have some plans to talk about the science, tell the people in the room what the science is and how to start moving forward. And I think you're going to do some practical — "complete the stress cycle" is what we've chatted about — some practical ways that people can start to implement small things into their day-to-day lives that make a difference. Is that right?

Natalie Connor: That's absolutely right. Yeah. And it's all very much about listening to your own body and mind and what your needs are. But yeah, there are definitely some actionable tools that kind of everyone can take away and that will definitely have an impact. And then beyond that, you know, in terms of bigger interventions, bigger lifestyle interventions, it's about what works for you, you know, and where you can kind of realistically start. So yeah, I'm going to be talking a lot about, yeah, the stress cycle, how our body responds to stress, what our body thinks is happening, the fight or flight response, the part that blood sugar regulation plays in all of that and the part that kind of movement plays in all of that. So hopefully it will be interesting and useful for people.

Orlagh Kelly: Yeah, I mean I'm really looking forward to it. I've no doubt that it'll be interesting. And certainly the topics that you're talking about — blood sugar regulation, for example — is very, I think "fashionable" is the wrong word to say, but people are starting to understand the impact that lack of regulation of blood sugar has on you on an hour to hour basis and on your ability to manage your life. So I'm really looking forward to the conference on that. But if you do have any sort of suggestions of where the audience could maybe look for some small tips around mindfulness to get them started, we'll certainly list those again underneath the podcast so we can start somewhat of a mini revolution. And finally, is there anything from a more of a profession perspective — not for the individual but for the profession and chambers — that they could be thinking about in terms of helping their entire team, the clerking team and staff, under barristers, anything that you think could happen that would be a step in the right direction?

Natalie Connor: I mean, I think any kind of initiative that prioritises health and wellbeing is a good idea. I mean, I think there's already plenty of talk about mental health and there has been for a while, but I think what's missing — I think what the missing piece is — is the part that physical intervention plays in mental health and in overall health.

And you know, it's something that most workplaces are guilty of, to be honest, as well as the bar — but, you know, actually encouraging people to get up out of, you know, out of their seats and move their bodies. And, you know, perhaps take a slightly more holistic look at, you know, what food you're serving at events and whether you only want to serve alcohol and, you know, all of this — I think all of this is kind of up for grabs. And, you know, as I say, barristers are such intellectually curious people. I think a bit of education on some of these topics would land really well and could really make the difference for people from a health perspective. So yeah, I'd start with education and then see what little interventions might resonate with particular chambers.

Orlagh Kelly: And I certainly think the younger generation, the new barristers coming in, have a different approach. They are already talking about mindfulness. They're thinking about, you know, how do they put physical movement or the gym into their day — a lot don't drink, it's a sort of a health decision as opposed to anything else, which is very different to when I started at the bar 20 years ago, where particularly in, you know, in Northern Ireland and Ireland, it's a bit more prevalent — it's just the culture. And so interesting to see how the new and younger generation of the bar might be the people that move this forward.

Natalie Connor: Absolutely, absolutely. I certainly know when I started out, you know, my older colleagues in chambers would mock me for cycling into work or for, you know, being in my gym lycra or popping out to the gym at lunch. Like, it was just unfathomable to them that I would want to spend a lunchtime moving my body rather than eating in hall, you know, a huge plate of carbs, or, you know, having a nice boozy lunch somewhere. It was it was just kind of, yeah. They could not wrap their head around it. But yeah, I think you're right. I think the younger generation will hopefully take a different view. But I'm also hoping to encourage the older chambers generation to maybe just re-examine their lifestyle as well, because it's really never too late to make changes that are going to have potentially a huge impact on you, particularly in later life. We can all get very complacent, I think, if there's nothing horribly wrong right now.

But the fact is, most of us are going to suffer from one of the big four diseases of ageing at some point, and those are Alzheimer's, heart disease, cancer, and diabetes or metabolic dysfunction. Most of us are, and all of the stuff that we kind of talk about on our retreats and in our various resources with Elevate are the things you can do now to basically stop that in its tracks, or at least mitigate your chances of having to deal with any of them in a serious way. I would have thought the older generation might be thinking a little bit more along those lines too. It's never too late. I'm not giving up. I'm not giving up on the KCs.

Orlagh Kelly: I think that's a good idea. I think we're in a different world than when you and I were called to the bar. So I'm confident that there's a more open mindset, definitely. So thank you very much for joining me on the podcast. It's been very interesting. I look forward to hearing a lot more from you. And I'll have to get signed up to one of your retreats.

Natalie Connor: Absolutely, would love to have you.

Orlagh Kelly: Very good. Thank you very much.

Natalie Connor: Thank you so much.