Orlagh Kelly: Rowan Caffull, welcome to the Get Briefed podcast. It's great to have you.

Rowan Caffull: Thank you. It's very good to be here and I really appreciate the invite.

Orlagh Kelly: Thank you very much. So for anyone who doesn't know Rowan — Rowan is currently the Chief Operating Officer at the 36 Group and has been there, I believe, since about 2009. Rowan, is that correct?

Rowan Caffull: That's right, I'm just coming up to my 15-year anniversary, I think in a couple of months time, so something to celebrate.

Orlagh Kelly: Yeah, absolutely. I hope you're having a party.

Rowan Caffull: Well, we'll see. We'll see if they throw one for me.

Orlagh Kelly: There's an idea now, you hadn't thought about it — should be an idea for someone to do for you. So how did you get started on a career in chambers? Was that your original idea? Have you come up from graduation, or have you done other things?

Rowan Caffull: So it's an unusual story in the sense that I kind of fell into it by accident, but it's a pretty common story, I think, in clerking — that it was through somebody I knew who was a clerk who, when I was looking for work, they said, oh, why don't you give this a go? And this is a really good career. If you don't know what you want to do, give it a go for a little while and see what happens. So I was lucky enough to get a temporary role, a six-month contract at 36, 15 years ago, pushing trolleys and being the junior clerk and just doing the manual labour work. As I say, 15 years later, I'm still here. I think they've either forgotten or I've done something right to move up through the ranks during that time. But I've had quite a lot of different roles at 36 in that time.

I had some really valuable experience in the clerks' room and other roles in chambers, which I think have really served me quite well for the role that I'm in now — to see chambers in all of those different ways as well and the different aspects of how it works.

Orlagh Kelly: Well, it's certainly very impressive to have started out 15 years ago as a very junior clerk doing all of the trolley work and be Chief Operating Officer of such a big set. I mean, you have about 160 members, is that correct, over multi, multi-practice areas?

Rowan Caffull: That's right. Lots of members. I think we're in total 190-odd now, although it's a number that changes almost daily in time. Yeah, it has been quite a rise over those 15 years. And I've been really fortunate to be given opportunities to show what I can do in chambers and to take on new roles.

Chambers have given me a lot of opportunities to prove myself and they've been really loyal to me and I want to be loyal back to them. And also considering I was quite young when I took some of the more senior roles in chambers — and chambers have always been clear to me that age just isn't a barrier — I'm really keen to show that to others as well, that it's about how you perform and it's about your skill set rather than about your experience in terms of years or your qualifications and those sorts of things. It's about performance in the role.

Orlagh Kelly: And so given the fact that you accelerated through really a pathway from very, very junior to one of the most senior people on the leadership team — apart from the fact that you worked within a set that has a culture that has allowed you to flourish, from what you're saying — what would you suggest, for example, to someone else who's in that junior clerking world and really wants to make a career? What are the things that they need to do to get where you are?

Rowan Caffull: I think it's all about attitude, I think. And I've always had the attitude that I want to — I can't sit still. I want to be busy. I want to learn. I want to do the next thing. What's the next challenge? What's the next project? And I'm one that will constantly be pushing the barrier of, what's the next course I can go on? What's the next piece of training I need? What's the next piece of self-development that I need to explore to better myself? And that then could be valuable and I could use as part of my role here in chambers. So I would just say to anybody, just keep learning. Don't think that just because you've got your job, that's it now. Or that because clerking is one of the very few careers where you don't need a degree or significant education to start off in it, don't think that you can't do that later and go out and get some training and get some self-development later down the line and just continually do that — because I think we've all got things to learn and if we don't think we have, we're probably missing the point.

Orlagh Kelly: And have you any examples of those types of training or personal and professional development initiatives that you undertook?

Rowan Caffull: I mean, I've done loads to be honest, and even down to things that, you know, a lot of people wouldn't consider development, but just reading. And just, you know, I'm reading the 5AM Club at the moment, which was recommended to me by a friend. I just get — I do something like that and I just get so invested into that sort of model of, you know, how can I better myself and improve my way of living. But I think that it will be different for each individual person. And one week I'll be going on a course about tech or AI. The next week I'll be reading a self-development book. It just changes. When GDPR first came out, we had a lot of conversations and we went on a lot of courses that you ran on GDPR and I just I wanted to be the expert. I wanted to know everything about it and I just wanted to — I want to be the expert.

But I just — yeah, there's this thing in me where I just want to continually learn and know everything about everything. So that's what I would encourage people to do — is just have that attitude to keep developing.

Orlagh Kelly: So thirst for knowledge has obviously held you in very good stead. I mean, certainly if I reflect on my own career — I obviously went to the bar and that was a really big focus for me, and that's really all that I wanted to do. However, having finished up in private practice 12 years later, it was a leap for me to start to talk to tech companies about developing software and starting to understand the world around marketing and sales, which is — even though I did own my own business as a barrister — it was something that was alien to me. And then when I moved into employing people, I had to think about HR and employment — areas that again hadn't really been part of my existence. And what I find is being able to just understand and thrive on learning new things rather than being afraid of them — where I might have been a little bit more like that earlier on in my career certainly — has helped broaden my ability to do new things. But it's also made life very interesting and it opens up new worlds and ways to communicate with other people that maybe have a different professional background and creates really interesting conversations. And so you do have, however, an IT background of sorts, isn't that correct? So can you tell me a bit about how that dovetails into your clerking background?

Rowan Caffull: Yeah, absolutely. It's not really an IT background in the sense that, as I mentioned earlier, I don't have any degrees or anything in this area or really any work experience in that area — other than I have a real keen interest myself in tech and kind of constantly developing, you know, what's the latest thing. And that means that I spend a huge amount of money on gadgets personally, which is a dangerous habit. But also that I just have this real interest in kind of developing chambers into new technologies, personally. So early on in my career, me and my brother — who's also a bit of a tech nerd, a massive tech nerd, much more than me — started a little website company, which is really small and it's just a hobby.

But there are some really exciting projects that we do and that I think really helps me bring some of those ideas and some of those fresh perspectives around technology and things that we could do with innovation in chambers and how we can use that in different areas. If I was just in chambers and not having any fingers in other pies elsewhere, there are probably a lot of things you just wouldn't know about. But being in that industry as well helps me to understand what else is in the market and what the possibilities are.

Orlagh Kelly: Well, that's really interesting. So would you say that you have an entrepreneurial streak that you like to explore and invent new things?

Rowan Caffull: Yeah, definitely. The people that know me well would know that I come up with a new business idea about once a week and usually they're complete rubbish. And I've got people around me that can keep me grounded on these sorts of things. I'll always start a conversation with: "So I've had an idea." Usually it's a roll of the eyes and a long sigh. But occasionally some of these ideas stick and we've got a few little businesses that we run on the side.

And some of those are really interesting and really fun things. You know, I think it's just about me not wanting to sit still again. I just need a project. I need something to be doing. Usually, you know, chambers keeps me very busy, but sometimes just having something else to focus on outside of work hours is quite fun. And I just need to keep myself entertained in that way.

Orlagh Kelly: And that energises you. And I know that you have a really interesting business around music. Do you want to tell us a little bit about that and how that got started?

Rowan Caffull: Yeah, absolutely. So this is a business that me and my brother run. We're both members of the Salvation Army, grown up in the Salvation Army, and those that know the Salvation Army will know that brass bands are a major part of that. We developed a system where it was essentially a database — you know, an Excel spreadsheet initially — which was a searchable database for every piece of music, every brass band piece of music that the Salvation Army had ever published. And what book you could find it in, who composed it, what year it was composed, those sorts of things. We had no idea that it would be so useful to people around the world and quite quickly it became this really, really popular tool. And over the years that's developed into what is now probably one of the most used tools in Salvation Army music circles around the world, with literally worldwide visitors — tens of thousands of people a month from around the world viewing, purchasing music on our site and just using our site as a resource for whatever it is they're doing as Salvation Army brass bands. People who are into brass bands in the Salvation Army are really into them. And this is a tool that those people find really useful. So it's quite fun for us because we're interested in those sorts of things as well. It's a hobby and it keeps us entertained, but it just again is something outside of the chambers world that keeps us interested, but also gives us a perspective from outside things that we could bring into this world as well.

Orlagh Kelly: Yeah, and of course the chambers world is fairly traditional, has operated largely the same way for a very long period of time — very successfully — but I guess would have a reputation to not change particularly quickly. I would say I noticed a very fast pace of change due to the lockdown restrictions around Covid, where people had to move to work from home and had to work online. In my, I guess, 20 years since I was called, that was the acceleration point for technology that I noticed. And this is me thinking about how I used to practise, and then developing technology and the uptake of that in that time — that was almost an unprecedented change. And so from your perspective — you and I had conversations before about how you like to do things differently at the 36 Group and that that has been successful — what are you able to share and tell the audience about things that you have done that have helped the 36 Group be the success that it is?

Rowan Caffull: I think — and I wouldn't want to take credit personally for things that have happened at 36, because there are a lot of people as a team of people involved in anything that happens here — I think that we always just try and be innovative in the way that we think about the way that the business operates. And that started fairly early. I remember being in conversations around commercialising the business when it was really unusual for chambers to be commercialised in any way at all. And there are still some chambers that are running the traditional models, and if that works for them, that's great. But for us, we realised that as quite a big multidisciplinary set, to set ourselves apart, we needed to just take a bit more of a commercial approach to everything, run things in a more business-like way. And I think a lot of it is about just remembering that we're a people-orientated business. Every chambers is, and it's about finding the right homes for the right people within that structure. So you know, I always say to people, you know, if somebody leaves, for example, I would always say, let's have a really serious conversation about do we replace them? How do we replace them? And what does that look like? Let's not just go to market and immediately advertise for that position again, because it might be that we can do something different, something a bit innovative. So it sounds really simple, those sorts of things, but it's just about trying to be a bit more commercial, trying to think outside the box. And as I say, I don't want to take any credit for that because that is just the model of the company that we have tried to create over the years — this culture of allowing barristers to be barristers. But I think also at 36, we're just really fortunate that we've got people who are ready to accept change and ready to evolve and adapt to new things. So COVID, as you say, you know, threw us all into this position where we all had to adapt and there was just kind of no real choice around it. But outside of that, I think, you know, people need to be ready to accept that change has to happen, change is painful, but it has to happen sometimes. And actually, if it's not painful, it's probably not a change worth making.

Orlagh Kelly: That's good. And it does strike me when I listen to you that you must work within a framework with your management board, your heads of chambers and your leadership team that embraces this type of innovation and commercialisation, which is what allows you to propel that forward. And it's great in that respect to work with people that want to do that. That's really great.

Are there any main principles that you stick to on a daily basis around how you perform your role?

Rowan Caffull: Yeah, I think it's probably a bit cliche to be honest, all of these, but I pride myself personally on efficiency and just getting the job done. I think it was hammered into me really from early days by my first senior clerk — I just had to complete all of my jobs before I left for the day. And I've just kind of never really lost that principle, you know, just if you can do something today, why do it tomorrow? And just be efficient and get things done. And a lot of the time that means creating systems to make yourself more efficient and make other people more efficient as well. It's not just about spending 18 hours a day working. It's the old work smarter, not harder mantra — just create a system for yourself which makes your working life easier and makes things more efficient. But also surrounding yourself with good people, surrounding yourself with wise people, people who've been there before. I mentioned that I came into this young and was kind of thrust into a position where I felt massive imposter syndrome. I still do. But for a number of years, I really struggled with that. And it was really important to just surround myself with good people who'd been around and who would be happy to advise and give counsel to me in decisions that we're taking and kind of be patient with that. So I think that's really important. And I've talked about personal development and I just think that's key — in terms of, for me, for the imposter syndrome, but for everybody just to kind of keep looking to grow. Don't just sit back and think you've achieved it. What's next?

Orlagh Kelly: It always strikes me as almost shocking when you hear about very successful people and referencing imposter syndrome. So if you didn't mind me picking up on that, how did that show up for you? Where did you start to become cognizant of the fact that that was something that you were experiencing?

Rowan Caffull: I think it's always been there, to be honest. I think it's something, you know — even if I look back to early days as a junior clerk, I would think, I don't really know what I'm doing. But, you know, we'll just get on with it and hope for the best. But certainly, you know, taking on a leadership role where I was ultimately responsible for other people and for a company, with people who were far more experienced than me — in clerking, in chambers management, in terms of the number of years they've been around, but also in terms of the responsibilities they'd had before. And I think I found that really difficult. I probably found that more difficult than the people that I thought might find it difficult, you know, being managed by me. And so it was really a step for me that I had to overcome to say, I'm in this position for a reason. I've been given this opportunity for a reason. It's not just because there was nobody else there. And almost having to accept that, you know, I was good enough for it and that I had to just get on with it and prove that worth. And it came back to that loyalty point as well. The chambers, as I say, have been really loyal to me over the years and given me those opportunities. And I just want to repay that and I want to do the best possible job I can. And I know that if I'm constantly looking over my shoulder and thinking, I'm not good enough for this, I'm not going to perform very well. And so you've got to go into things with confidence. And I've had some personal coaching and personal development on those issues to try and overcome that. And that has really helped. But I'm sure it manifests itself differently for everybody. But for me, it's still there.

No, I don't think it would ever go away because that's just the type of character I am. But I feel a lot more confident in the way that I can manage it on a day-to-day basis.

Orlagh Kelly: Yeah, I mean it certainly strikes me that the industry and the profession that you work within is bound to ostensibly have this throughout, because from a clerking perspective there has to be a significant amount of confidence in how to do business development and sell your barristers. From a barrister perspective there has to be a significant amount of confidence in how you do your job. But all of us have to start from not knowing how to do it. And I guess — is it that the jobs that we're in create this feeling of not being good enough or not knowing enough? Is it your intrinsic DNA? I'm not sure. I certainly remember when I was first on my feet being obviously very nervous about having to speak in front of a judge. I imagine every young barrister feels like that. I mean, so nervous to the point I was worried I wouldn't remember my own name, let alone be able to represent the client properly. And certainly for that period of time, in my opinion, was a fake it till you make it type feeling.

I haven't explored whether that's imposter syndrome or just natural nerves and having to develop. What would you say to maybe people — either junior at the bar, maybe junior in the clerking rooms — that are feeling a little bit overwhelmed or that they maybe aren't sure about what they're doing? Do you have any advice that you could give them?

Rowan Caffull: As I said, I think it probably manifests itself differently for everybody and there'll be different coping mechanisms for people. But for me, it was really important — I mentioned that I have had a number of different roles in chambers and had the really valuable experience of being in the clerks' room. But for me, it was really important that I recognised that the clerks' room wasn't the place for me, that that wasn't where I was best suited and where chambers were going to get the best out of me.

I think it's really important that...

Orlagh Kelly: Was the reason for that? What was the reason for that in terms of what was a good fit and where did you fit better?

Rowan Caffull: I'm not really a very outgoing person. I'm quite shy. And the clerks' room environment was about marketing. It was about sales. It was about going out and seeing people and business development ultimately. And that's just not me — to go and speak to people in that kind of cold environment. If I've got a relationship with people, I find that fine, but a cold entry to a relationship I think that's quite difficult for me. And so I just felt that, you know, I have skills in other areas with, you know, the tech stuff that we've talked about and also just kind of business operations and the real passion for kind of making change in those areas that I felt could be better served somewhere else. And so I would say individuals should do probably a bit of soul searching about where they best fit in an organisation, because if you find the right home for yourself, you can feel more confident immediately in terms of your ability to perform in that role.

But also advice for companies — to find the right place for people and give people the opportunity. We've got a really proud tradition here of, you know, me being a prime example of being promoted through the ranks and giving people the opportunity to take on different roles and move around teams and find the right place for them. And I think too often in companies, you know, we see staff who don't succeed in the role and they end up leaving the company. It might not be that they're not a good member of staff. It might just be that they're in the wrong role. And so, you know, if both from a personal perspective and a company perspective we're looking at where the right place is for individuals, I think we'll all get much more out of that relationship.

And hopefully those people who do have elements of imposter syndrome — with some personal development for themselves as well — will feel more confident that they can perform.

Orlagh Kelly: Yeah, I would agree. It's an old adage about having the right people on the bus in the right seats. That's what they say about driving a company. Have you read that book?

How do you effectively operate such a successful set? What are the key tenets in doing that, that other people could have a look at?

Rowan Caffull: I wouldn't profess to have all of the answers on this, but I think from my point of view, we need to remember that, as I said earlier, chambers is a people-orientated business. And we can easily get bogged down by focusing too much on the finances or the work that we're bringing in, but it is about the people. And we need to make sure those relationships are solid, with our people, and that relationship — the culture of chambers — is about the relationship between the members, the staff and the company. But then I also think we need to be ready to change and adapt to the circumstances around us. And COVID has taught us that we need to be ready to kind of drop everything at a moment's notice and change the structure. So I think that's going to be key. For us, we're on this journey of allowing members — barristers — to be barristers and allowing them to go and do what they've trained for and to do their day job, and having business people and staff employees to run the company on a day-to-day basis. Again, it comes back to that point about putting people in the right place and everyone occupying the roles that are relevant to them. That doesn't mean there's no place for barristers on committees and strategies and boards, but it does mean that you've got to make sure you've got the right structure in place to make the right decisions and adapt to change and change when we need to.

Orlagh Kelly: Very good. And let barristers be barristers.

Rowan Caffull: Absolutely, absolutely. I think that's key.

Orlagh Kelly: Absolutely. And so looking forward — none of us can predict a lockdown Covid situation, but looking forward to some of the hot topics, I guess, or potential challenges that the bar might face. I know that you spoke wonderfully at an IBC event recently around AI. Any thoughts that you can share about how AI might affect the bar and might affect the business of chambers?

Rowan Caffull: Yeah, I think again it probably comes back to this point around innovation and just being ready to adapt and change to the capabilities around us. I know there is a fear around AI and I know there is a concern in many industries around — is it going to replace people? Is it going to kind of take things away from the way that we currently do it? My view is I think it's fascinating. I think it's really exciting. I think there's loads that we could do — you particularly from an efficiency point of view — about taking some of those menial tasks that we all do every day and just allowing tech to do that for us. And some of that isn't even AI, it's just kind of technology that's probably been available for years. And we simply don't know what it's going to look like in a year's time or in two years' time and what the options would be there. So again, I think being ready to adapt and being open to the possibilities around it and using it in the right way. I think so often we get burned by something like this that is new and exciting and we try and run before we can walk with it. And then it just won't work and it won't help the company, it won't help us as individuals.

So I think we've got to make sure we understand the capabilities properly and then really, really explore as a company and as individuals, you know, how best we can use it to help the business, rather than it just being a bit of excitement and a bit of a fad.

Orlagh Kelly: And so what I'm hearing from you, Rowan — through your style — is that you see this as an opportunity. I think for the most part.

Rowan Caffull: Yeah, I think so. You know, I think there are threats around it. I think there are concerns and we've got to be cautious about how we use it, but everything's an opportunity, you know, and I think that we should — I always try and look at the positive side of it and what can we get out of it? What can it do for us? And so, yeah, definitely. I'm really excited about what the future holds with AI in this particular area.

And at the moment, particularly for staff and the administration of chambers and the running of chambers — because I think we should be cautious around the legal work side of it at the moment — but I think particularly for staff and administration, there are some things today that could be real quick wins for people and make people more efficient in the way they run their companies.

Orlagh Kelly: Yeah, well, knowing you, that would make the 36 Group a set to watch when it comes to innovating the administrative side, because I have no doubt that you will be ahead of the curve on that. So thank you very much for joining us today. I hope that it was an interesting conversation for you as well. I certainly enjoyed it. And thank you for being candid about all of your different parts of your journey and some of the challenges and the opportunities that you've had. And I look forward to talking to you again.

Rowan Caffull: Brilliant, no — thank you very, very much for having me. I really appreciate it.