Orlagh Kelly: Welcome to Tina Cook KC, Head of Chambers at 42BR and family barrister with around 20 years in practice. We're really delighted to have you on the podcast and looking forward to hearing about your career at the bar to date and all about the fantastic renovation that you guys have done at 42BR and really anything else that we get around to today. So thank you.

Tina Cook KC: Fantastic. It's a pleasure to be here.

Orlagh Kelly: So I guess starting off, you could call it the bar in the 80s, am I right?

Tina Cook KC: Yeah, I think 88. I think 88.

Orlagh Kelly: 88, and so, tell me a little bit about your career really from then. You're coming up to 40 years at the bar.

Tina Cook KC: Yeah, so I didn't really ever think — so it goes back all of it before that, which was a bit self-indulgent to do this, but I went to a very nice series of schools, all of whom thought I was quite stupid, which was obviously probably quite right. And when I was at my final grammar school — I'd been to a comprehensive, I'd been everywhere — and I went to my final grammar school and I said, I'd like to go to Oxford. And they said, no, no, you're far too stupid to go to Oxford, don't apply. And I said, well, I am going to apply. And they said, well, if you're going to apply, don't apply to read law.

And I didn't even know what law was. I was in Blackburn, Lancashire. I had no idea what law was. No law, no university in my family. And so I applied to read law just out of pure contrary devilment. And I got to Oxford to read law. And when I got to Oxford to read law, the lovely tutors in my group of nine at my college said, well, you should all go and be solicitors. Because it was at a time when the solicitors' firms were paying a fortune for training in articles.

And everybody except me applied for articles and they all went to Freshfields and Clifford Chance. And I, of course, because I was told not to go to the bar, applied to go to the bar. So the only reason I went to the bar is because I was told not to go to Oxford and not to apply to read law and not to go to the bar. So it's an absolute miracle because I have always loved it. I love it. I still love it. I love the advocacy. I love the thinking on your feet. I love forensic analysis. I just love the whole arguing bit. So when I went to what was 22 Old Buildings a long time ago — I've always been in the same chambers, which is also quite sad — we've moved around. 22 Old Buildings became 42 Bedford Row and now we're 42BR Barristers at Staples Inn. So I guess it's quite funny because I don't know about you Orlagh, but I have those kind of, should I feel guilty about how it was in 1988 and should I feel guilty about the fact that all the MeToo movement now, should I have done things differently? Should I have stood up more for women then? When some senior barrister propositioned you and you just brushed it off because that was what happened and you just put it to one side and made sure that other people didn't go near him. I guess you were, but I think things have changed hugely in terms of the work. I did general common law. I did everything. I did a bit of crime at the beginning even. So I did everything from planning to PI to family, which I think is great discipline for all baby barristers because you learn different skills in different areas. And I certainly did that until I had kids when I realised that if I was to be out of London — which we are as a family — I couldn't do London-based cases. I couldn't do that. I had to do whatever was going to work at home. So I just transferred my whole practice to public law childcare.

And our base is the West Country. So I spent a lot of time working in Devon and Cornwall and Bristol. And I could be here every night for the kids and be here every weekend and just do and still work. So my practice really changed dramatically because I had kids. I think every woman at the bar must feel that there's a compromise somewhere or a change, not necessarily a compromise, but certainly a change because you can't do everything, you end up feeling you're doing everything badly if you don't make some compromises. You know, that running around and being the person who arrives in the playground with the wrong kit and uniform and book day rubbish. You know, I was always the one who, because I wasn't there regularly, didn't know you had to take a cake this Wednesday. And everybody else had that beautiful cake, so I'd be there. And my kids would say, mama, you never bring the cake. And I didn't, still don't.

Orlagh Kelly: Tina, there are WhatsApp groups now for all of that kind of thing. I'm experiencing the torment of them, if I'm honest.

Tina Cook KC: I know, thank goodness for WhatsApp now. But yeah, it's changed. And my practice has evolved, I guess, around my children or did then, and I guess it did till I took silk.

Orlagh Kelly: And so where do you think your career would have been had you not decided to make those changes?

Tina Cook KC: I don't know, I just don't know, but I think I would have — I don't think I've ever done it for the money. The money's fantastic and lovely, and particularly in silk it's lovely to earn what we earn. But there's certainly, when you can do — I mean, I remember doing a planning inquiry or a building type case, being a junior to a chap in chambers who's sadly now dead. And I paid for the deposit of my first house in London with that money because it was so lucrative to do that. You know, City of Westminster versus whatever. And I certainly — you know, maybe that would have been a thing to go, I didn't really understand it, understand all that planning stuff, but I know I got paid a lot of money for doing that. I was in a shipping case actually, my golly, because Brian Leveson led me in a shipping case. What did I know about shipping? No idea. But you know, I don't know where I'd have gone.

It was quite nice sitting in chambers doing papers, you know, earning money for doing pleadings. That was quite nice. I don't do that anymore. I don't know. I still love, I love the family bar now, but I think it was certainly considered to be a second-rate thing to be doing at that point. It was kind of, you did it if you had kids, you did it if you were a woman. You know, it was very female-centric. It still is frowned upon actually. It still really is. You know, if I'm at socialising with big clever Chancery people. They say things like, don't really sort of see family law to be law at all. Maybe they're right. But it's well down the — you know, it's not in the Premier League. It's really well down there.

Orlagh Kelly: I'm going to have to push back and say it's possibly not considered to be in the Premier League, but to be a family law practitioner, you have to have a multitude of skills and a significant amount of resilience. I'm speaking to someone who was a family law practitioner, so I'm not going to let anybody do it down. I appreciate the reputation.

But I mean, when you know, when the cases that I was working on prior to having left the bar, you know, complex non-accidental injury cases with children and medical experts and intersecting criminal proceedings, there's no way that that was not Premier League of the abilities required.

Tina Cook KC: I agree with you. I think I agree. It's the people who do it well, do it with great skill. I mean, I completely agree with you. But it is — I know when I go to drinks parties, the Chancery bar, it's not really, and you know, what's the point in arguing with them? Whatever. But I know, I mean, I see people and I think still I go into a case and there are opponents new and old who you've never met before and older ones you see all the time.

Some of whom I still learn — well, every case you learn something, every case I learn something to do or not to do. You know, someone who's really bad at it and you think, my God, you wouldn't dream of. Or somebody who cross-examines in a different way with great skill. And you think, you know, wow, it's clever. I've got so much respect for some of my opponents, enormous respect for their skills.

And the judges, the same applies. Some of them are absolutely brilliant and know what they're doing and have such humanity and authority and some are rubbish. But that's also the nature of life, isn't it? I mean, that's a long-winded answer to your question. I've come around in a circle and I'm really happy where I am. I love the family law bar. I love public law, childcare. I do private law as well, which is a bit more taxing for me, I think. People bickering about their children.

But you know, again, that has its place in my practice.

Orlagh Kelly: Certainly interesting to me that actually you moved into the children's law space, family law space once you had kids. Because I have to say, I essentially had left the bar by the time I had my kids. And I'm very glad not to be practising in that area. Once you move into the public law piece and you're — well, even seeing people battling out over their own children. I'm not sure that that's something that I would want to have to do anymore. It would not, on a mental health level, I don't think that it would be good for me. I am very happy not to be there. It's a difficult, difficult type of work.

Tina Cook KC: Didn't you find — I mean, people always ask that question, don't they? My golly, how do you do that? It's so difficult. The factual matrix of what you do is really unpleasant. And it is, mostly sometimes, you know, whether it's a child being sexually abused or whether it's a child being violently physically abused or murdered. But I think it's so far away from my personal existence. You know, the ones that upset me — I'd be interested in what you think. The ones that get me, the ones I can imagine. So when I had a ten-month-old blonde baby boy, who's now 21, a six-foot-four, I was doing a case about a blonde baby, ten-month-old, beautiful baby boy who was used as a cricket bat and his head was smashed against a wall. And I — mostly I can do those cases and just go, you know, it's just, I can't imagine the horrors of that, the torture of that baby.

But because this little boy was the identikit of my little boy at that point, and I had all the forensic photographs, I came home and sobbed, just came home and sobbed when we'd finished. But that's so few and far between.

Orlagh Kelly: Yeah, that's rarity for you.

Tina Cook KC: Yes, really rare. So the things you can imagine, the things you can transpose into your real life are painful. Adults who have mental health problems or out of the blue — that you can pick there, but there by the grace of God go I.

You know, things that you can imagine in your own family sphere are hurtful, are painful, but things that are so way beyond my real life just don't touch the sides. So is that the kind of thing that you can identify?

Orlagh Kelly: I remember those questions back in the day, people would say, how do you do this every day? And at the time my answer was, well, I don't ever get to meet the children, you know, and there's something to be said for that level of being removed. I typically represented the parents, mothers or fathers.

Tina Cook KC: You don't see photographs of the children, do you? I don't, you know, so this child, little Johnny's, and you don't...

Orlagh Kelly: Certainly an ability, I think, to create some level of disconnect until necessarily you perhaps saw people giving evidence. I certainly, once I left the bar, felt an awful lot of relief that I hadn't understood that I was holding on to. It was, I don't know if anyone else really has this, but it was waking up at 3am practising what my cross-examination was going to be. I just — I represented a lot of fathers in cases where mothers wouldn't allow them to have contact for one reason or another. And I was very cognizant of the fact that if I didn't ask questions in the correct order and elicit the correct responses to essentially persuade the judge — as is the job — if I didn't do that correctly, that child might not have a relationship with their father. And so the knock-on effect of me not doing it correctly was catastrophic for some child and for the father too, if I understood him to be a good father and really trying hard. I didn't know it until I left, the relief of not having that level of responsibility again. And so I wonder if I was still there and if — I mean, I left the bar about 10 years ago — and if I was, you know, dealing with more complicated, impactful cases, how would that play out for me?

Tina Cook KC: It's a huge responsibility. We walk into court, you know, so how many family law barristers are there in my chambers? 60. Everybody walks into court every day and it's, you know, it's another day, another court, another job for us. I'm not minimising the importance of it in terms of how seriously one takes it. But for each family we're dealing with, it's make or break, it's kill or cure. It's just a huge responsibility. When I go into court and I see less than good barristers acting for any party it really terrifies me because you just think — I just finished a case with silks in it and one of them, one of them clearly wasn't a family silk. And I see a lot of criminal silks coming across because it's more lucrative actually. It's quite funny — so, an unknown silk, no idea what he's doing, not asking the right questions, not protecting his client's position. Terrifying. Just terrifying. You know, what do we do about that? Do we go to the head of chambers and say, a silk in your chambers... Terrifying. So I'm with you. The responsibility, which I think we all sort of skirt round, and maybe it is because you stopped practising that you went, that was scary. That was scary. And it is quite scary. So maybe that's why we don't let ourselves think about it.

Orlagh Kelly: Think about it too much. I mean, I add that to the fact that you don't have control over your day. You don't have control of your diary a lot of the time. You have to in children's law. Well, in many types of law, but in children's law, for example, things need to be done quickly so that the child isn't prejudiced. And all of that expectation and pressure builds up and creates a difficulty for carving out time for, I guess, the new word that everyone's talking about, wellbeing. And looking after your wellbeing. And I wonder if the pressures of the job are just such that wellbeing isn't something that you can prioritise all of the time because you do have a responsibility to your client.

Tina Cook KC: I think that depends on your disposition, doesn't it? I find it very easy to just say, well, I'm not going to work this weekend. I mean, I can't — if you've got a case starting, you know, say my cases are big cases, they're three or four or five week cases, or even two or three or four. So once you've prepped it, you've prepped it pretty much. And therefore I know I don't have to work this last weekend because all the prep was done two or three weeks ago, so it's done. But I'm very good at thinking, I'm not going to work this weekend because I don't need to. But then the same applies — if somebody says to you, can you do this brief on Monday? You know damn well that's your weekend gone. And we do it because that's the responsibility we have if we're saying we're doing a case, we're going to do it properly. You know, non-lawyers always say, why do you spend all your Sundays working? Which I think I did more as a junior than I do now. And I said, because I can't turn up at court on Monday morning and say to the judge, I couldn't be bothered yesterday. Just couldn't be bothered if I had a jolly time and went for a decent lunch, because that's not the mentality of people who join the bar. That's not our mentality. Yeah. You know, you would take it really seriously, I think. I hope so.

Orlagh Kelly: Would you have any advice for younger or baby barristers that are starting out, how they can essentially create those boundaries for themselves earlier than taking silk, which is when you were able to do that?

Tina Cook KC: I don't know how you can, because I think it's so difficult to get pupillage first of all, and there comes a point — I've watched so many people — there comes a point where you'll do anything to get silk, which is kind of back to the MeToo thing, to get pupillage, back to the MeToo thing. People behave — not in my chambers, ever, ever, ever. I keep sending emails around saying, if I hear of anything inappropriate — people automatically think that something's going on, but there isn't.

It's so desperately difficult to get pupillage, and it's desperately difficult to get tenancy. At 42BR, we almost always give our pupils tenancy unless it's a disaster. But I don't see how you can, because that work ethic, that desire to be there, how much work you put into it in time and effort — once you're there, you're kind of in a narrow channel. I mean, we talked about earlier before we started recording about the chambers space, but it doesn't really apply to — and lockdown actually, you know, lockdown was a great lesson to us. We sort of got halfway through lockdown, and at 42BR, we realised we had — you know, you kind of think, oh my golly, our pupils who need the cut and thrust and the walking into someone's room and saying, Tina, how do I do this? What do you think about that? I've got to go to court. And our pupils really suffered, as I'm sure all pupils really suffered. Because there was nobody there to hold their hands. And I think we just moved into a beautiful, beautiful new building — which is a beautiful old building from our side, but inside it's like a WeWork — and it's beautiful with coffee bars and this and the open space and people are coming in. And I think that actually, there's a lot of open plan, but there's a lot of rooms. It's not all open plan and it's really quite beautiful, not ghastly. And I think that ability to be able to walk in to a happy, friendly set of chambers and to be able to say to anybody from one year call to 40 years call, God, I've got this case. What do you think? Could I do it this way? And again, you said WhatsApp groups earlier. I've got several WhatsApp groups on my phone from chambers and there'll be a message from maybe from me to the whole group saying, I've got this, how would you deal with this? And I've got five minutes for a chat about this case. And I think that support is just absolutely vital. And so I do see people who are struggling in chambers with that balance or finding the responsibility that you and I have just talked about just too much. And sometimes they leave and sometimes we reduce the work for them and try and manage that for them. But I think it's just — I think it's in the nature of a barrister to just go at 100 miles an hour and work 100% of the time. I do try really hard to see where there's a problem and Vincent Denham, who I don't know if you know, our chambers director, will say to me, or one of the clerks will say to me, Tina, you need to know that such and such is struggling a bit or such and such a one's mother's died or such and such. And I think we do try that, but that's back to people physically going into chambers and talking or sitting down and having a cup of coffee or a glass of wine. And I think post-pandemic, that's been so difficult for so many chambers. And our move — I think the move is fab in terms of a building, but I think it's just made people think, okay, the old building, which was beautiful, was pre-pandemic, and we've kind of almost turned on a new page, not just because of the building. It's kind of closed down something which had some, I've talked about, unpleasant connotations because of a struggle for two or three years with the pandemic and with life. And people who didn't actually want to move have walked into that building and gone, breath of fresh air. And they come in. And I just think psychologically, a lot happened in those two or three years that we just need to go, okay, that's done, that's finished, let's move on. So I don't know what advice I'd give, you know, can you say to a junior barrister, listen, you don't have to take every case. There'll always be cases. That's, I guess, something you can try and impart. But when you're 25 and you've just started out, you've made it to tenancy and you've worked so hard and strived so hard, you kind of think, I can't take any time off because what happens? My career will be over. And it takes a lot of time to work out — actually, just chill and, you know, have a week and then come back and there'll be more cases. There'll always be cases. Don't worry. So I guess that's the advice. Just takes some time. Yeah. It's just difficult, isn't it? And that protectionist attitude. I can't share my work. There's quite a few people in chambers who still say, well, I couldn't possibly, and no one — you know, to junior barristers, I wanted to say to them, get it. Listen, if you share your work, if you introduce your good solicitors to good barristers, they're going to send us more good work. And we've got so much good work. It's fascinating. It's just fascinating that kind of — because we're self-employed — that protectionist thing, my golly, my practice requires me to be in court every day. And it doesn't. It really doesn't.

Orlagh Kelly: Absolutely. And so just picking up on the fact that you've mentioned that you had a move from an old building to a new building — for a set of your size that's quite a big project. Can you tell us a bit about that project, what was the driving factor, and the...

Tina Cook KC: We were in a beautiful old building at 42 Bedford Row, beautiful two Georgian houses. And post-pandemic, as you know, we're all now working from home or remotely or in little booths. And we either had to refurb that building, which was rented, or we had to find somewhere new and make it what we wanted. And the cost was about the same. The cost broadly to try and strip out two Georgian buildings which are listed — so you can't actually open anything up — and so we just took the view eventually that we found this Staples Inn building, which is just off Chancery Lane. It's closer to the RCJ. It feels like an Inn of Court. It has the right feel. It looks, it's a beautiful magnolia tree outside in the courtyard. You know, it looks like an Inn of Court and you walk in and because there's no listed buildings, it's kind of big and airy and light and fit for purpose. So we just took the plunge, which wasn't popular with everybody in chambers. But it's quite funny how a lot of those people who really were vociferous against it walked in and said, we love it. We love it. So it's just, it's — yeah, what a relief. Phew.

Orlagh Kelly: And how do you — I mean, one of the things that of course I'm interested in understanding is whenever you became head of chambers, what does that mean for a professional who's typically been self-employed, I guess possibly on some committees or whatever in chambers, but then moves into this leadership role? And it's, you know, it's a great opportunity, I would imagine.

Tina Cook KC: I don't think it is. I think it's a huge burden. I was the silk left standing, so I was the only silk and I kind of had no choice. I'm blessed that I have a civil partner in my leadership of chambers, Richard Furness, who's great. It's a burden. I think if you're a pompous old male barrister, there's a kudos to it. It's an unpaid job. I'm managing 120 barristers and 20 members of staff. I mean, the best thing I did and could do was make sure we had the most fantastic chambers director. Boom. You know, then he's managing me and everything else. So I look after Vincent, Vincent looks after me and it works. But there's always something, you know, somebody complains about a barrister or a barrister complains about the building. I don't think it's an honour. I don't think it's...

It is a privilege in lots of respects. So when I became head of chambers, nobody, I don't think, was doing very much to make sure that particularly the women in chambers were maximising their potential. No one was encouraging — it was that protectionist attitude and no one was encouraging anybody. Look, my view is, look, go and make applications to be recorders and district judges if you want to work as part-time judges, and make your applications for Silk, go do it. I'll support you, we'll support you, chambers will help you, it's an onerous task, but it's really worthwhile. And no one was doing that. And now we have four more Silks, we have five Silks in total, and four women and one man. And I pushed and pushed, and I know this re-application is going in this year, and I'm so excited. And this morning I had somebody WhatsApping me saying, can you look at my form?

You know, that has been a complete privilege to be able to say to people from — you know, we're going to hold an evening, we're going to have a glass of wine this evening, and we're going to discuss even the junior people, your career. You know, we're going to discuss the fact that you need to be thinking now, aged — cool, 10 years from now. Let's have a look at the Silk opportunities. Let's have a look at the part-time judicial opportunities. Let's have a look at other things which are going to broaden your career. And that actually has been a real privilege, which I wouldn't have been able to do otherwise.

Orlagh Kelly: So what I'm hearing from you there is that whilst there are challenges on the practical level and operationally, and managing the opinions and the wants and needs of so many people, the leadership piece — the opportunity where you're able to invigorate your team and move them forward and really see them thrive just based on the fact that they do well — has been the best thing for you in being head of chambers.

Tina Cook KC: And you know, it's been such a reward, such an unexpected reward. Yeah, that's lovely. I'm almost, touch wood, we'll have two more Silks this time next year, maybe three. And you know, my God, my heart will swell with pride.

Orlagh Kelly: Isn't that wonderful? That was fantastic. And so any challenges that you've come across along the way that you see, that possibly you would have dealt with differently with all of the knowledge that you have now?

Tina Cook KC: I do — I've touched on this already — I do wonder whether all of us, you know, at 59, whether all of us who went through that era where people were behaving inappropriately, you know, senior barristers, senior clerks with female barristers, baby barristers, juniors, pupils. I think that my peer group, solicitors and barristers, we just navigated that in a different way. We didn't call anybody out.

Maybe we should have been calling people out, but that would have been so prejudicial to our careers. And that's the dilemma, isn't it? Would I have done it differently? I mean, I've got two daughters who are 19 and 25. Do I tell them to do things differently? I do tell them to do things differently. So perhaps — you know, I spent my whole time saying to them, shoulders back, tits out, girls, stand tall. You're equal to any man. Don't you walk behind them. At worst, you walk next to them. At best, you're walking ahead of them. Because at the bar it still is male-dominated. Neither of them will be barristers. You know what I mean? It's about empowering your people. Because I wasn't empowered to do it. I just kind of followed the line because I wanted to be a barrister. I wanted tenancy. I didn't want to rock the boat by calling somebody out who had propositioned you in a wine bar, you know, or in court. I didn't. Well, I think my girls would call it out actually. I think my girls would.

Orlagh Kelly: What I'm thinking though is that it required that foundational piece over maybe the 80s and the 90s where women could go to the bar and just succeed and be good at their jobs to allow the next generation to come along and build on that and say, it's already been proven that we can do this job, and now we're not going to put up with that type of behaviour. And so I mean...

Tina Cook KC: That's very generous, all that makes me feel much better. It's a very generous perspective.

Orlagh Kelly: I think you can only make the right decision in the situation and with the information that you have at the time. And you know, it's easy to look back in our 40s and 50s and think that we should do things differently when we're 24 and 25, but you just don't have the resilience or the knowledge to do it at the time. And so I really love when I see the mentorship that happens with more senior women at the bar, helping people coming along and helping inform them and support them. I think that's very useful and I certainly did have that when I was at the bar. I benefited greatly, particularly from a group of colleagues from my master. And you know what, that was a huge support to me. So I think that's the best that you can do.

Tina Cook KC: Yeah, I think it's very generous of you and I like that. I like that perspective. But I also agree with it and like it, but I also think, because we're self-employed at the bar and because we're individuals, so I might sit with a bunch of my peers who I did bar school with sort of after the event, but you don't realise it's happening to everybody else. So because you're you, you're not in an office of a solicitors' firm and you're not — there's not 20 of you. There's two of you in your chambers because you're pupils and I just think that does sort of...

And also it's so highly competitive. I didn't want to rock that boat. But I think now, you're right. There's now enough of us at the bar. And my golly, I told you already, I send periodic emails around saying, I hear, your feet will not touch the ground, if anybody — whether it's racist, sexist, physical — there's no way I'm going to put up with any of that in my chambers. And they all know that. So I think someone would come to me if there was anything.

Orlagh Kelly: And that strong leadership is required. I mean, that's to me another example of being a strong leader in that the entire culture of chambers is dictated by what you will accept and not accept. And so the benefits then for all of your membership and your staff are bountiful given that that's your attitude, in my opinion.

Tina Cook KC: I think it's a happy set. I do think, you know, you walk in and yes, there are grievances and niggles — whether it's clerks or whether it's barristers, probably more the barristers, you know, herding cats, 120 intelligent barristers. But I think it's a happy set. I think, you know, I do think it's a happy set. I think people come in and whether they're visitors or whether you're a member or whether you're a clerk, I think it's a nice place to work now. It's a nice place to be, which I'm pleased about.

Orlagh Kelly: Yeah, well, well done. It's not easy to do that necessarily. It's not the same everywhere. So well done. And so what does the future look like for yourself and for 42BR?

Tina Cook KC: For 42BR, we're flying. Yeah, we're flying. We're recruiting people beautifully and our turnover, our individual earnings are going up, up, up. Vincent's doing an amazing job. So that's fantastic. And we're on track. And I think it is circular. It's a happy, supportive — we've had a couple of people join us from really good sets recently. And they said, well, we weren't getting the support. We're not getting the support from our fellow barristers. And we know, because we see you in court, that you support each other. So that's really satisfying. And we will carry on recruiting, that's great. And we'll have more Silks and therefore that again, that's circular, isn't it? More Silks, more juniors, more impressive cases, more high-profile cases, more money, you know, so that's great. That's going to plan, perfectly to plan. I set Vincent a very firm target when he joined about six years ago and he's getting every year — I increase the financial and all the other targets and he gets them, so that's cool. You have to keep — although I don't know.

Orlagh Kelly: You'd have to keep him. Don't let him go anywhere.

Tina Cook KC: We've got a pact. We've got a pact. Vincent and I will go at the same time. I'm not going without him and he's not going without me. So that's fine. We'll leave together. It's okay. We've got a succession plan. But in terms of me, I can't even think of not being at the bar. I love, I love arguing. I love preparing a case. I love 18,000 pages. I love marking them or looking at my computer. I just — the whole thing is just such an adrenaline buzz for me.

I mean, some more than others. And I love the camaraderie. I love the fact it's a club. Family Law Bar is such a club. I go to — I don't travel very far these days, but I'm starting a case today in Kent. And I will be really good mates with two or three of the barristers there, professional mates. And I'll walk in and we'll have a drink together. We'll have lunch together. We'll have a laugh, ask how his wife is. And it's this travelling circus of clever, entertaining people. So whether you're in Birmingham, you see the same — because it's such a small world, you see the same people. Whether you're in Brighton, you see the same people. Not the exact same, but you see the same 200 people. And it's such fun. It's such a wonderful, wonderful club to be a member of and a privilege to be able to argue and have these cases. And so I can't conceive of stopping. I don't, nor do I want to be one of those really old women schlepping around courts and everyone saying, my God, she should have stopped 10 years ago.

So I've got a few pacts with a few barristers and I say, when I reach just before that, you need to tell me and I'll go quietly. Yeah, tap me on the shoulder, please. I'd love to do something else. I don't think, you know, in theory, we've got a transferable skill, but I don't really see what I would do. I don't really. I thought I might want to be master of my old college in Oxford and then I decided that would be a very bad idea. Not before I got around to the penultimate round of interviews and I thought, no, it won't suit me.

Orlagh Kelly: What did you think wouldn't suit you about it? Was there something in particular that kind of...

Tina Cook KC: I'd be employed.

Orlagh Kelly: Yeah. It's a big thing. Yeah. To ask someone for your holidays, you know, after a long time of being self-employed.

Tina Cook KC: Yeah, people telling me what to do. Goodness gracious.

Orlagh Kelly: It does feel, Tina, from having listened to you, that being told what to do is not necessarily your favourite thing.

Tina Cook KC: My husband manages it beautifully. He often says, no, darling, I don't think so. I go, oh yeah, okay. But I'll say, the Oxford College thing — you'll be answerable to a lot of people. It would be a real effort. And you'd also be on duty the whole time. You know, you'd live in college. And anyway, I was really pleased I didn't get down to the final round. But I don't know what else I could do apart from this. I certainly couldn't lunch and play tennis.

That would just kill me. I can't play bridge so I can't be a lady who lunches. I don't know. I don't know.

Orlagh Kelly: There are other challenges. I mean, I — when I was at the bar, you know, a group of us were concerned we had no transferable skills. People kept telling us that we did, but we couldn't think of what they were. And when I left the bar, I found — I haven't thought about this in any great detail — but the skills that stood me in good stead were having to be a bit fearless in terms of talking to people that you don't know, and talking and standing up and asking for things. And I guess I had gotten that confidence from being at the bar, and a thirst to learn — you know, no difficulty, and I don't know anything about this subject, but I'm going to learn about it. And the ability to communicate and be articulate is something that barristers forget that most people don't have that level of training or practice doing. And it's one of the benefits I have, I have to say, running this podcast, that everyone that comes on is inherently articulate, which is not something all podcasts have that benefit.

And wonderful storytellers as well, which is great. So there are definitely lots of transferable skills, but I think the biggest one was being happy to learn and ask questions. I mean, I think if you're still enjoying it, as you indicate every single part of it, there's no real reason to give it up at this.

Tina Cook KC: Maybe do a bit less of it. My theory is do three months on, two months off kind of thing, but we'll see. It's all good at the moment.

Orlagh Kelly: Well, thank you very much. It's been such a pleasure talking to you. And I hope that we get you on again when we're a little bit further down the line to see what further successes you have. You're clearly thriving in every way possible.

Tina Cook KC: See if I've learned anything from my transferable skills.

Orlagh Kelly: I think you're doing a wonderful thing for all of the generations coming behind you and just keep it up.

Tina Cook KC: Well thank you Orlagh, it's a great pleasure to talk to you.

Orlagh Kelly: Thank you very much.