To round off the first season of our GetBriefed Podcast, we were fortunate enough to meet the Bar Standards Board Chair, Kathryn Stone OBE, in London for an in-depth conversation on integrity, justice and the future of legal standards.

Kathryn’s journey to becoming Chair of the Bar Standards Board reflects a career defined by overcoming challenges and championing equality.

Raised in a modest background with limited career expectations for women, her early ambition to make a difference was shaped by a formative experience volunteering at a miners' holiday camp. There, she witnessed the inequalities faced by vulnerable individuals, sparking her determination to create change.

Encouraged by a supportive teacher, Kathryn pursued higher education despite financial constraints, working multiple jobs to fund her studies. Her persistence led to a series of influential roles, including Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards and Victims Commissioner in Northern Ireland, before her appointment to the Bar Standards Board.

This season finale explored the BSB's role in maintaining legal standards and the ongoing consultations aimed at promoting equality, diversity, and inclusion within the profession. We also touched on some concerns raised by the wider Bar and the potential and risks of using technology and AI in legal practices.

Q: You have been described as ‘Chief Sleaze Buster’ for Parliament in some of your previous roles – can you tell us a bit about that time in your life? How do you end up in a job like that?

My grandad was a policeman and he would tell me about good people and ‘wronguns’. He said, you must always, always speak up if there's something wrong or bad. So I think it's pretty much his fault, because I haven't really shut up ever since. 

All my jobs have been about things being right and fair. When I was in Belfast, my job as Commissioner for Victims and Survivors, it was about what's right and fair for victims of the Troubles. When I was Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards, my job was to implement the code of conduct and do that in a way that was independent, impartial, thorough and fair. And those were the values that we, as a team set for the office. And that's what we delivered. And I have to say, there were many occasions when the decisions were deeply unpopular. And being popular has never been an ambition. Making sure that the job I did was right and fair has always been what I've set out to do.

Q: These roles you have been in come with confrontation and scrutiny attached to them – How do you manage that amid trying to do your job effectively?

I think the only way to deal with those difficult and challenging situations is to work with a brilliant team of people and I was always and am now privileged to work with a brilliant team of people who I know have got my back.

If we conduct ourselves in a way that people can see is fair, then we can stand over our decision making, however unpopular it is. I have to say those situations were very difficult for my family, very difficult for my children, very difficult for my loved ones. But they  have come to a resolution that this is mum doing her job.

Being popular is not an ambition. Doing a job that is professional, thorough, evidence-based, impartial, independent, all those words, that's what my jobs have been about. 

I hope that people can see that even if they didn't agree with the outcome or felt that the decision was wrong, that it was evidence based and it was a thorough job.

Q: You have sat on the board of the Bar Standards Board since 2018 – what has that six-year journey been like with the BSB?

 Growing up and as a young adult, I had absolutely no exposure to the bar. I had no idea what a barrister was. It wasn't anywhere in my frame of reference. I never encountered barrister until I was a child protection social worker.

I have to say, in mill towns in the north of England, we didn't have barristers. Well, we probably did, but, you know, we weren't exposed to them. I absolutely respect and admire the professionalism that barristers bring and the hard work and the dedication that it takes to become a barrister. The majority of barristers go out every single day to do the very best job they can.

It's the job of a regulator to set and maintain standards, to challenge standards, to encourage debate and to ensure that there is a continued improvement of those professional standards. 

We regulate in the public interest, and that's what we have to do.

Q: One of the main things we want to touch on is the consultation period that the Bar Standards Board are in with the Bar around barristers’ core duties on Equality, Diversity and Inclusion, which has garnered a lot of attention and some backlash online. Could you tell us a bit about the details of this consultation?

Okay, so first rule, don't believe everything you read online.

What we're trying to do is to consult, and it really is a genuine consultation, we're very, very interested to know what people think about our proposal to shift from a negative duty not to unlawfully discriminate, which all of us have to do, to a positive duty to promote equality, diversity and inclusion.

One of the things that's really surprised me about this is the reaction that people have had to this. And what we're trying to do is to promote a better understanding throughout the Bar of what equality, diversity, inclusion mean in terms of practice, for example, in chambers. And it's about barristers practice in chambers. How do barristers know that work is being distributed equally and fairly? How do barristers know that pupillage opportunities are being given to people equally and fairly? How do they know that? What steps can they put in place?

We're not seeking to revolutionise anything. We don't want the sky to fall in. We just want barristers to behave in a way that is positively promoting equality, diversity and inclusion.

Solicitors and the Solicitors’ Regulatory Authority (SRA) have something very similar to this already and all barristers who apply to be a KC have to be able to demonstrate a competence in taking positive action to promote equality, diversity and inclusion. So there are already precedents across the legal profession for this.

[The consultation] is a genuine consultation. It doesn't close till 29th November at 5pm so if people want to make sure that we hear their views, please, please write in, get in touch and tell us what you think.

Q: There appears to have been major concern from the Bar Council that these kind of changes to barristers’ responsibilities could have unintended consequences – What is your response to this?

Well, I've been speaking at a conference this morning with the Chair of the Bar Council. We were both speaking at the LPMA, the Legal Practice Managers association event this morning, and we're looking forward to receiving the formal submission from the Bar Council.

I think it's right that we wait until we get that before we respond to anything that's said. So we'll wait for that.

Q: Some members are concerned about the possibility that they could be disciplined by the regulator if they do not meet the proposed requirements. Do you have any concerns on the implementation and the monitoring and regulation around that?

I think enforcement has to be a very last resort. Enforcement is the last tool in the toolbox for a regulator, and there are all sorts of things [that we can do] before anybody would consider enforcement action.

But if people have concerns about the lack of clarity about how this would be enforced, how it would be measured, then that's certainly something that we would look at in our response to the consultation responses that we receive.

Q: What are your thoughts on the Bar Council’s independent review of bullying and harassment at the Bar, carried out by Harriet Harman KC?

I have met with Baroness Harman and our Director General, Mark Neale is about to meet with her on behalf of the BSB, so we are engaged with that. Obviously if Baroness Harman has any recommendations as to discipline and sanction, that will be for the Bar Standards Board to consider, so we look forward to that.

In my previous roles, I've had some experience of investigating bullying, harassment and sexual misconduct, and one of the things that's really crucial is that proper consideration is given to an imbalance of power and authority.

We see that in the House of Commons, and we certainly see it at the Bar. You know, people in positions of power and authority who have sway over people's careers, their livelihood. It's very, very difficult for people to think about making a report or bringing a complaint and one of the things that we are absolutely clear about is that we will deal effectively with any reports that we have of bullying, harassment and sexual misconduct. Whatever recommendations come out of Baroness Harman's review, we'll look very carefully at those and implement those.

Q: What have been some of the key developments in 2024 that the Bar Standards Board and the broader profession can label as a positive change? Are there areas of note that need more attention heading into 2025?

I'm really excited about how we harness technology and how we use artificial intelligence to support the work of the Bar and how we use artificial intelligence data technology to improve and develop our processes and systems at the Bar Standards Board.

So I think that's something that's really, really exciting for us as an organisation and exciting for the profession. I think there's been some catastrophic fails where people have used ChatGPT to write skeleton arguments, and they use case law that doesn't exist. So, you know, there's a way to go yet. But I think that's something that's really exciting and interesting.

The full conversation with Kathryn Stone is available here.